Neurotypical Disorder - a comparison between Autistic & NT minds

Not funny no.

(I am in the middle of a big project and so not posting much but I do lurk for a few minutes every day. ..But today, I cannot let pass this rhetorical vitriol.)

I give a warning, once again, against isolating one group as more valid than another. It is slippery slope down to intolerance, prejudice and hate. There is no right or wrong or more or less valid way to experience the world.

Why must it be said? Please stop fomenting divisive and hurtful feelings with these thoughtless sorts of offerings.

Seek to understand and find love and common ground, rather seeking differences to throw as barbs at others whom you have not taken the trouble to have sought to understand. It is lazy and hurtful. Not funny.

Hi Uhane

I did not intend any offence, invalidation, intolerance, or prejudice. I stated that I value some NT people I know highly. This was not meant to be divisive.

My recent research has been seeking to examine the differences between how autistic and NT minds work, for the sole reason of understanding myself and others better.

Many times on this forum I have seen people posting who are highly depressed because they see autism as completely negative. But neurotypical people are not all happy souls getting along together and doing everything better than autistic people. They have communication problems, relationship problems, and various other issues that affect them. But they are never given a "Diagnostic criteria" which tells them basically "this is who you are, a list of deficits." Autistic people are given that, which tells them they are a person defined by:

1. Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, ranging, for example, from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back-and-forth conversation; to reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect; to failure to initiate or respond to social interactions.
2. Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication.
3. Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understanding relationships, ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social contexts; to difficulties in sharing imaginative play or in making friends; to absence of interest in peers.
4. Stereotyped or repetitive motor movements, use of objects, or speech (e.g., simple motor stereotypes, lining up toys or flipping objects, echolalia, idiosyncratic phrases).
5. Insistence on sameness, inflexible adherence to routines, or ritualized patterns of verbal or nonverbal behavior (e.g., extreme distress at small changes, difficulties with transitions, rigid thinking patterns, greeting rituals, need to take same route or eat same food every day).
6. Highly restricted, fixated interests that are abnormal in intensity or focus (e.g., strong attachment to or preoccupation with unusual objects, excessively circumscribed or perseverative interests).

I know that for people to get support they need a "diagnosis" but I wish there was a way for everyone's needs to be met without this rather negative criteria, which causes many autistic adults to feel there is no hope for them to achieve anything. If people respond to my ideas with humour, that's a way of letting off steam in a safe place and making themselves feel part of a group. We are not angels who can rise above everything thrown at us, we're human beings with feelings and emotions. We get things wrong sometimes, we get angry or upset sometimes. That doesn't mean we're bad people.

Hi Uhane

I did not intend any offence, invalidation, intolerance, or prejudice. I stated that I value some NT people I know highly. This was not meant to be divisive.

My recent research has been seeking to examine the differences between how autistic and NT minds work, for the sole reason of understanding myself and others better.

Many times on this forum I have seen people posting who are highly depressed because they see autism as completely negative. But neurotypical people are not all happy souls getting along together and doing everything better than autistic people. They have communication problems, relationship problems, and various other issues that affect them. But they are never given a "Diagnostic criteria" which tells them basically "this is who you are, a list of deficits." Autistic people are given that, which tells them they are a person defined by:

1. Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, ranging, for example, from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back-and-forth conversation; to reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect; to failure to initiate or respond to social interactions.
2. Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication.
3. Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understanding relationships, ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social contexts; to difficulties in sharing imaginative play or in making friends; to absence of interest in peers.
4. Stereotyped or repetitive motor movements, use of objects, or speech (e.g., simple motor stereotypes, lining up toys or flipping objects, echolalia, idiosyncratic phrases).
5. Insistence on sameness, inflexible adherence to routines, or ritualized patterns of verbal or nonverbal behavior (e.g., extreme distress at small changes, difficulties with transitions, rigid thinking patterns, greeting rituals, need to take same route or eat same food every day).
6. Highly restricted, fixated interests that are abnormal in intensity or focus (e.g., strong attachment to or preoccupation with unusual objects, excessively circumscribed or perseverative interests).

I know that for people to get support they need a "diagnosis" but I wish there was a way for everyone's needs to be met without this rather negative criteria, which causes many autistic adults to feel there is no hope for them to achieve anything. If people respond to my ideas with humour, that's a way of letting off steam in a safe place and making themselves feel part of a group. We are not angels who can rise above everything thrown at us, we're human beings with feelings and emotions. We get things wrong sometimes, we get angry or upset sometimes. That doesn't mean we're bad people.

Pixiefox said:

This was targeted at Autistic adults, on a forum for Autistic adults, and intended to be a sort of "what if?.."  exercise, to get people thinking about diagnosis criteria and how it affects how people feel about themselves. 

That’s exactly what it did, you achieved your intended purpose!

It would be great though if non autistic people could read this reframe and instead of becoming offended, recognise the harm that describing us in this way causes throughout our whole lives (unless we have the opportunity to transition to the neurodiversity paradigm, which thankfully some of us do including myself and you).

I'm sorry if any of this thread has upset anyone reading it. Please let me make it clear:

This was targeted at Autistic adults, on a forum for Autistic adults, and intended to be a sort of "what if?.."  exercise, to get people thinking about diagnosis criteria and how it affects how people feel about themselves. 

It was not meant to try to persuade anyone to be prejudiced against non autistic people (if I have persuaded anyone of anything, that would be a first, plus autistic adults are capable of making up their own mind about things)

I do have a couple of neurotypical friends, who I value greatly.

If you are a non autistic person reading this, please feel free to post your thoughts and feelings about it, so that I can learn from you.

Every one of you who have posted on this thread have given me something to think about or a glimpse into how you think and feel, so thank you for your input. You are all unique, you are all valid, you are all valued.

I know some white supremacists who say the exact same thing. replace the group with another but all this rhetoric amounts to the same. Just ask a person from your "target group". I challenge you to ask yourself if you would share this list with a person with an NT mind. there you will find your conscience, or not. I'm sure you know some if you have not already alienated them.

Pixiefox said:

But when a person finds out they are autistic, the neurotypical people close to them may find it very difficult to accept this - although that may be in part to do with masking, I believe that the neurotypical brain finds it difficult to accept a change in someone's identity, and likes to feel that everyone in their "group" is the same, as they would be uncomfortable feeling "different" .

You are welcome!

 I completely agree with your point here, this is often linked to the fact that social hierarchy and status is often very important for non autistic people (and neurotypical people) and therefore when we disclose our autistic identity for example, this then can create changes in group dynamics and therefore leave the non autistic person feeling ‘unsafe’.

Also, to link another point, I have noted that fake interactions such as constant small talk are very common amongst non autistic people, which firstly means they very rarely get any deeper than surface level communication and secondly sometimes seem to prefer this to authentic deep dive conversations (part of our natural communication style).

Pixiefox said:

I don't know what is the best way to overcome the differences in communication and thinking between Autistic and non autistic people, but although NT people can't understand us if they are not educated about autism, It's harder for me to educate people if I don't understand the way they think and what their challenges are. 

Increased understanding of the double empathy problem and more broadly culture clashes.

Pixiefox said:

I would like to see more understanding and acceptance about the fact that there are two neurotypes in our species. I believe there are many, many more autistic people than are diagnosed or aware of it at present, due to us not realising that we don't all think the same way and due to unconscious masking. I'm trying to work towards the idea that autism is not a medical condition, it's nowhere near as rare as people believe, and to see how we can foster understanding between the two neurotypes.

There are more than two neurotypes in our species, in fact infinite neurotypes!

Here is a brilliant graphic that explains my point:

Non exhaustive list, but I hope you understand my point!

Thank you Ausome

I agree that neurodiversity is important, and division helps no-one. But when a person finds out they are autistic, the neurotypical people close to them may find it very difficult to accept this - although that may be in part to do with masking, I believe that the neurotypical brain finds it difficult to accept a change in someone's identity, and likes to feel that everyone in their "group" is the same, as they would be uncomfortable feeling "different" . Also, if they read the autism diagnostic criteria, they may refuse to accept that applies to their friend/family member. So to them, it's being kind to say"you don't look autistic", "we're all a bit autistic" or even to dismiss the idea that someone they have known for years does not actually think or perceive the world the same way they do. That can cause tension, as the autistic person may feel invalidated or not taken seriously, but it's not the fault of the neurotypical person.

I don't know what is the best way to overcome the differences in communication and thinking between Autistic and non autistic people, but although NT people can't understand us if they are not educated about autism, It's harder for me to educate people if I don't understand the way they think and what their challenges are. 

I would like to see more understanding and acceptance about the fact that there are two neurotypes in our species. I believe there are many, many more autistic people than are diagnosed or aware of it at present, due to us not realising that we don't all think the same way and due to unconscious masking. I'm trying to work towards the idea that autism is not a medical condition, it's nowhere near as rare as people believe, and to see how we can foster understanding between the two neurotypes.

Great point!

We are always the ones who are pathologised purely because there are more people of the predominant neurotype than there are of us neurodivergent people, which makes no sense and shows that their ways of being are valued more than ours!

That’s why your point and original post is so important as it raises the question of how would non autistic people feel if they were described like we are so often? (Rhetorical question!) This supports our wellbeing and a positive autistic identity as we can then realise that the reason we are so described so negatively is usually because of a power imbalance, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being autistic! We are Ausomely Autistic!

However, I do understand Uhane‘s point about creating division as we cannot educate non autistic people effectively about our autistic experiences if there seems to be some obvious tension between both communities. We are all human after all and we all need to appreciate the neurodiversity of our population.