Arguments on the forum

I have a proposal. I'd like the communities opinion on it.

Jeez, Peter. Do you even understand the impact of bringing up words like sexual abuse? I was sexually abused as a child. It's disgusting to casually throw terms like this about like it's just an annoyance. Show some understanding of what these terms actually mean to people and the impact it has on our lives. 

I'm not minimising your experience. You have my heartfelt sympathies. But I don't think strangers should be accusing each other of sex crimes in the open in this forum. I'm not saying it can't be discussed hypothetically or we can't talk about our personal experiences but I think basically some of the accusations that have been flying around in post recently have been liable. I'm not making light of it. the exact opposite.

I know this may be difficult for you to understand but I find censorship triggering. I’m not joking I’ve literally had sleepless nights over it. Articles in newspapers about how some person was lampooned or pilloried or persecuted for something they said but was from their point of you completely reasonable. In the name of sensitivity many bad laws have been made and people have fallen foul of these bad laws, it keeps me up at night sometimes.

do you know how many people were stressed over Brexit? I feel the same way when I read articles about how this or that person should be penalised for saying something insensitive.

Peter I'm not saying you've no right to an opinion any more than I'd say you've no right to a bum-hole, (I think you are wrong regarding certain topics being a free for all but I'm not interested in entertaining dystopian ideas of thought crime) but pls leave it alone with Ottilie because that kind of PTSD is a literal waking hell, so if you want to be sensitive be aware your opinion doesn't actually have to be shared every time the subject comes up, I think you like others, including me try to relate from a personal perspective which comes very naturally to us as autistic people, but we need to learn we aren't the centre of everything and we don't have to be, especially because you at least have the privilege of leaving this topic here when you log off tonight and people like Ottilie don't. That specific trauma is not something you  would wish on your worst enemy it follows you everywhere, nowhere is ever truly safe, not even your own head as you lay in bed at night, so please just heed Ottilies's words and let this be at least as safe a space as it can be. Other people need equal access to this space too for support which they can't do if it is littered with a minefield of carelessly laid triggers.

And certainly not telling you how you should feel. And I certainly don’t want to stop you expressing yourself or having your say or explaining your views. 
if you don’t like the way I phrased it before. instead of no one having the right to say how the conversation must go. shall we say instead nobody has the right to say how it cannot go. nobody not even on the grounds of sensitivity has the right to say this topic cannot be discussed particularly not when it’s relevant.

I appreciate it may not be obvious but this thread is very much a follow on from previous threads in which people being accused of sexual abuse was a major feature. There is really no roundabout way of addressing that adequately it has to be done directly.

Don't worry bees. I don't find you insensitive about these things. You don't need to stress about it. 

Ok Peter. I can take the same attitude. Your experiences don't give you a license to dictate how the conversation goes. But the point is that YOU ARE TRYING TO DICTATE HOW THE CONVERSATION GOES. You literally turned Debbie's post in to poll about that. Flippin' heck. You brought up sexual abuse without any sensitivity. You keep explaining to me how I should be/feel/express my own experiences and issues. Why don't you just shut up about it? What's your problem? And before you go on to tell me that I have a problem because I take issue with you telling me how to be, seriously just have some self reflection and stop telling sexual abuse survivors how they should be, act and feel. Ok? Do you understand? 

I mean I don’t wanna make anyone’s life harder if they find topics difficult. But I do worry sometimes within the clamour to try and be sensitive you do exactly what you say we’re trying not to do, which is to shush people. If nothing else getting threads locked because everyone is accusing everybody else of everything under the Sun, is effectively shushing people.

Nobody is trying to shush you or dictate you. We are a community and all our voices matter. It's a great opportunity to learn how to debate in a sensitive way about such triggering topics. I think it's useful to learn this not only for the sake of other members in the forum but for me in my personal life too. 

You haven't Ree. Don't worry. 

I’m sorry you seem genuinely upset and I didn’t want to upset you. But what happened doesn’t  give you A license to dictate how other people converse or who is speaking seriously or not speaking seriously or what is two lights what’s respectful what’s not respectful. i’m sorry but you cannot be the arbiter of these things. 

no one has to buy their way into serious conversations by having had awful life experiences. we all have something to say and something to share and our opinions are as strong as the arguments behind them. Your personal experience is uniquely yours I can’t tell you what it should or shouldn’t be, but it doesn’t give you an exclusive license to dictate how the conversation around these topics go.

"Uncomfortable". Whatever. When you've had your body and mind violated then come back and tell me about being made "uncomfortable". I've had more uncomfortableness than you can comprehend. You're the one taking an actual poll because you're upset by some random strangers on the internet arguing with you. Quit turning this in to Peter being persecuted. Your words are insensitive. Sexual abuse, rape and harassment are not topics for people that haven't experienced them to lightly discuss. If you want to discuss them then you'd better put aside your "willingness" and telling me how the conversation should be. You aren't the expert here. You don't get to say how or what the conversation should be. 

I am quite happy to put a question of my victimisation or non-victimisation to the side. I want to be a sensitive with you as I possibly can be. I certainly don’t want to exclude you from the conversation. But I’m not willing to avoid topics that make you uncomfortable just so that you can join in with the conversation. Not when those topics are important and need to be addressed.

I cannot undo what happened to you I wish I could. But your circumstances as horrible as they are do not entitle you to tell other people what they cannot discuss.

Wow. Thanks for that. Horrible? I nearly died. As a 4 year old with her mouth smothered by an adult male.  I think you should "step back" as you put it. Why should I be excluded from discussions that are totally relevant to me? Have you been sexually assaulted? How is this even relevant to you? I'm not using language that excludes people from their experiences. Why don't you step back instead of telling me what I should do? Why are you making Debbie's post into a poll about your supposed victimisation? 

Great idea!

Thank you for sharing this with us Ottilie. We definitely could learn to become more sensitive and aware of our influence on others. I agree with you wrote here too. I'm torn apart between two things, in the one hand it's extremely hard for me to read sexist comments against women rights, freedom or advocating for misogyny, ab*se or sometimes even worst and stay silent. I can't stay silent when someone is advertising for these ideologies. In the other hand I really don't want to participate in what would hurt people who are triggered by discussing these topics. I'm completely torn apart now. I would be grateful to know from you, how do you think these topics could be discussed (or not discussed) in a way that would include you and not trigger you?

I'm so sorry to hear that you went through that, if it will help minimise your triggers is there a better degree of word cens*rship you'd like me to try remember to use instead or should I just try and put the TW in as early/at the top of, a post/reply as possible?

Of course I care. That’s horrible and I am really sorry that happened to you. But I can’t agree that being an ally as you put it means not discussing important topics that the people in this forum need to address. i’m sorry you find it distressing. But if you find these conversations that need to happen distressing I think it is for you to step back from them. If that’s entitlement then it’s entitlement to speak and that is something male and female we all share. To speak and share our voices and points of view and opinions.

I’m not talking about banning anyone I should point out. i’m talking about banning a particular kind of accusation, made in public rather than through the proper channels.

I've been paying attention. You have the option to say nothing, just as I have over the years. Men dominating discussions, men dominating spaces, men making every thing about how it affects them is common and part of the problem. Why do you feel the need to even do this? You literally just started a poll about how people should be banned on here. You could have started a poll on anything. You could choose to be an ally. You could choose to channel your energy to improve things, but no you choose to bring up rape and sexual abuse and how offended you are by females discussing this in a way that you don't agree with. You aren't creating a safe space. You literally triggered me earlier. Do you care? Do you care that I was 4 years old and nearly died as I was suffocated by a male relative that was violating me? That's what my body and mind relives every time those words are spoken. If you don't have the sensitivity to understand what sexual assault is and the lifelong trauma that results from it then say nothing. Keep quiet. Just as I do when I don't fully understand something. It's not difficult. You are complicit in what happened recently. You're not a victim. You showed some vile opinions that stink of entitlement and insensitivity. If you get backlash over that then you shouldn't be surprised. 

I'm sorry that you had such terrible experience in the past Ottilie and I'm very sorry if any of my comments hurt you accidentally. I totally agree with what you wrote here. Thank you.

Obviously the last thing I want to do is to tell you how you should or shouldn’t express your personal outrage and pain. As far as I am aware you have not been going around accusing autistic people posting on this forum of being sex criminals. But other people have. And if the only way someone can process their pain is to make accusations against strangers on the Internet then I don’t think it’s in the interest of this forum to allow it. Particularly since it may be defamatory in the legal sense. Not only could be people posting it be sued but potentially NAS could be sued (#notlegaladvice).

these accusations are causing bitter contention and preventing us from having intellectual and nonconfrontational discussions about the serious issues. They are driving off posters who are coming to us looking for advice and instead of having accusations thrown at them. Whether or not I’ve been harassed these people have been harassed.

this needs to be a safe space for people to discuss their difficulties in sex and dating as much as a safe space for people to discuss their tragic experiences of abuse.

I didn't say you're making light of it. I said you're making it about you and how it annoys you. Maybe you don't understand the impact that has. I'm quite willing to take that on. 

I don't know a single female person that hasn't been sexually harassed or assaulted. Think about that. Adult or child, that is the female experience. Females come across this entitled attitude ALL THE TIME. If you are a true advocate then I politely ask you to stop defining how acceptable our outrage is and how it should be expressed. If you were the target group of harassment then I would accept your outrage and not make it about how your outrage offends me or makes me feel. You don't have the power to minimise my experience, so your words mean nothing about that. 

I didn't say you're making light of it. I said you're making it about you and how it annoys you. Maybe you don't understand the impact that has. I'm quite willing to take that on. 

I don't know a single female person that hasn't been sexually harassed or assaulted. Think about that. Adult or child, that is the female experience. Females come across this entitled attitude ALL THE TIME. If you are a true advocate then I politely ask you to stop defining how acceptable our outrage is and how it should be expressed. If you were the target group of harassment then I would accept your outrage and not make it about how your outrage offends me or makes me feel. You don't have the power to minimise my experience, so your words mean nothing about that. 

Let’s be blunt now arguing on the Internet is all I have. I don’t have a social life anymore they took that away from me. The people I would sit about with talking about micro Nations and genetic engineering and sci-fi and electrified bras … I no longer have those conversations. I don’t sleep anymore. Not really. I wear myself out on the sofa watching Netflix then drag myself up to bed in the wee hours of the morning. If I’m not arguing with you guys i’ll probably end up arguing with myself or just watching the same tired show all over again.

by all means go get some sleep.

Peter I'm really trying to be generous and give you the benefit of the doubt, despite our many differences and disagreements, but you don't half make it difficult.
I've tried my best here to help re-foster a sense of community peace, and I really don't think you'd hold the same view if you had been in Ottilies shoes, please try to see it from the other's perspective too because not all trauma is equal, and it isn't a competition. That's all I can say at this point and I can't be doing this all night, so I'm out.

@Ottilie , I really hope this doesn't put a dampener on the rest of your night/week, etc. Please reach out if you ever want to talk.

I’m just trying to explain that I find it really difficult not to argue against any case for censorship regardless of the circumstance.

I truly wish we had something closer to the United States first Amendment. which of course doesn’t protect all speech but as a general rule means that you can‘t censure  speech unless you can demonstrate tangible harm like yelling fire in a crowded room. It’s one of the things I would most like to see introduced into the British legal system.

I know this may be difficult for you to understand but I find censorship triggering. I’m not joking I’ve literally had sleepless nights over it. Articles in newspapers about how some person was lampooned or pilloried or persecuted for something they said but was from their point of you completely reasonable. In the name of sensitivity many bad laws have been made and people have fallen foul of these bad laws, it keeps me up at night sometimes.

do you know how many people were stressed over Brexit? I feel the same way when I read articles about how this or that person should be penalised for saying something insensitive.

Peter I'm not saying you've no right to an opinion any more than I'd say you've no right to a bum-hole, (I think you are wrong regarding certain topics being a free for all but I'm not interested in entertaining dystopian ideas of thought crime) but pls leave it alone with Ottilie because that kind of PTSD is a literal waking hell, so if you want to be sensitive be aware your opinion doesn't actually have to be shared every time the subject comes up, I think you like others, including me try to relate from a personal perspective which comes very naturally to us as autistic people, but we need to learn we aren't the centre of everything and we don't have to be, especially because you at least have the privilege of leaving this topic here when you log off tonight and people like Ottilie don't. That specific trauma is not something you  would wish on your worst enemy it follows you everywhere, nowhere is ever truly safe, not even your own head as you lay in bed at night, so please just heed Ottilies's words and let this be at least as safe a space as it can be. Other people need equal access to this space too for support which they can't do if it is littered with a minefield of carelessly laid triggers.

And certainly not telling you how you should feel. And I certainly don’t want to stop you expressing yourself or having your say or explaining your views. 
if you don’t like the way I phrased it before. instead of no one having the right to say how the conversation must go. shall we say instead nobody has the right to say how it cannot go. nobody not even on the grounds of sensitivity has the right to say this topic cannot be discussed particularly not when it’s relevant.

I appreciate it may not be obvious but this thread is very much a follow on from previous threads in which people being accused of sexual abuse was a major feature. There is really no roundabout way of addressing that adequately it has to be done directly.

Don't worry bees. I don't find you insensitive about these things. You don't need to stress about it. 

Ok Peter. I can take the same attitude. Your experiences don't give you a license to dictate how the conversation goes. But the point is that YOU ARE TRYING TO DICTATE HOW THE CONVERSATION GOES. You literally turned Debbie's post in to poll about that. Flippin' heck. You brought up sexual abuse without any sensitivity. You keep explaining to me how I should be/feel/express my own experiences and issues. Why don't you just shut up about it? What's your problem? And before you go on to tell me that I have a problem because I take issue with you telling me how to be, seriously just have some self reflection and stop telling sexual abuse survivors how they should be, act and feel. Ok? Do you understand? 

I mean I don’t wanna make anyone’s life harder if they find topics difficult. But I do worry sometimes within the clamour to try and be sensitive you do exactly what you say we’re trying not to do, which is to shush people. If nothing else getting threads locked because everyone is accusing everybody else of everything under the Sun, is effectively shushing people.

Nobody is trying to shush you or dictate you. We are a community and all our voices matter. It's a great opportunity to learn how to debate in a sensitive way about such triggering topics. I think it's useful to learn this not only for the sake of other members in the forum but for me in my personal life too. 

You haven't Ree. Don't worry. 

I’m sorry you seem genuinely upset and I didn’t want to upset you. But what happened doesn’t  give you A license to dictate how other people converse or who is speaking seriously or not speaking seriously or what is two lights what’s respectful what’s not respectful. i’m sorry but you cannot be the arbiter of these things. 

no one has to buy their way into serious conversations by having had awful life experiences. we all have something to say and something to share and our opinions are as strong as the arguments behind them. Your personal experience is uniquely yours I can’t tell you what it should or shouldn’t be, but it doesn’t give you an exclusive license to dictate how the conversation around these topics go.

"Uncomfortable". Whatever. When you've had your body and mind violated then come back and tell me about being made "uncomfortable". I've had more uncomfortableness than you can comprehend. You're the one taking an actual poll because you're upset by some random strangers on the internet arguing with you. Quit turning this in to Peter being persecuted. Your words are insensitive. Sexual abuse, rape and harassment are not topics for people that haven't experienced them to lightly discuss. If you want to discuss them then you'd better put aside your "willingness" and telling me how the conversation should be. You aren't the expert here. You don't get to say how or what the conversation should be. 

I am quite happy to put a question of my victimisation or non-victimisation to the side. I want to be a sensitive with you as I possibly can be. I certainly don’t want to exclude you from the conversation. But I’m not willing to avoid topics that make you uncomfortable just so that you can join in with the conversation. Not when those topics are important and need to be addressed.

I cannot undo what happened to you I wish I could. But your circumstances as horrible as they are do not entitle you to tell other people what they cannot discuss.

Wow. Thanks for that. Horrible? I nearly died. As a 4 year old with her mouth smothered by an adult male.  I think you should "step back" as you put it. Why should I be excluded from discussions that are totally relevant to me? Have you been sexually assaulted? How is this even relevant to you? I'm not using language that excludes people from their experiences. Why don't you step back instead of telling me what I should do? Why are you making Debbie's post into a poll about your supposed victimisation? 

Great idea!

Thank you for sharing this with us Ottilie. We definitely could learn to become more sensitive and aware of our influence on others. I agree with you wrote here too. I'm torn apart between two things, in the one hand it's extremely hard for me to read sexist comments against women rights, freedom or advocating for misogyny, ab*se or sometimes even worst and stay silent. I can't stay silent when someone is advertising for these ideologies. In the other hand I really don't want to participate in what would hurt people who are triggered by discussing these topics. I'm completely torn apart now. I would be grateful to know from you, how do you think these topics could be discussed (or not discussed) in a way that would include you and not trigger you?

I'm so sorry to hear that you went through that, if it will help minimise your triggers is there a better degree of word cens*rship you'd like me to try remember to use instead or should I just try and put the TW in as early/at the top of, a post/reply as possible?

Of course I care. That’s horrible and I am really sorry that happened to you. But I can’t agree that being an ally as you put it means not discussing important topics that the people in this forum need to address. i’m sorry you find it distressing. But if you find these conversations that need to happen distressing I think it is for you to step back from them. If that’s entitlement then it’s entitlement to speak and that is something male and female we all share. To speak and share our voices and points of view and opinions.

I’m not talking about banning anyone I should point out. i’m talking about banning a particular kind of accusation, made in public rather than through the proper channels.

I've been paying attention. You have the option to say nothing, just as I have over the years. Men dominating discussions, men dominating spaces, men making every thing about how it affects them is common and part of the problem. Why do you feel the need to even do this? You literally just started a poll about how people should be banned on here. You could have started a poll on anything. You could choose to be an ally. You could choose to channel your energy to improve things, but no you choose to bring up rape and sexual abuse and how offended you are by females discussing this in a way that you don't agree with. You aren't creating a safe space. You literally triggered me earlier. Do you care? Do you care that I was 4 years old and nearly died as I was suffocated by a male relative that was violating me? That's what my body and mind relives every time those words are spoken. If you don't have the sensitivity to understand what sexual assault is and the lifelong trauma that results from it then say nothing. Keep quiet. Just as I do when I don't fully understand something. It's not difficult. You are complicit in what happened recently. You're not a victim. You showed some vile opinions that stink of entitlement and insensitivity. If you get backlash over that then you shouldn't be surprised.