Published on 12, July, 2020
I was brought up to believe that we are divided socially into classes:
1. Working class.
2. Middle class.
3. Aristocracy.
I also read decades ago that classes were less relevant and were disappearing.
I'm curious as to what others think so here are some questions:
1. What class were you born into?
2. What class are you now?
3. Do you believe in 1 and 2?
4. ie Do you think class exists?
5. Do you think you can move class?
Also, without Googlerating, I'd be curious as to how these classes are defined.
I've tended to think of them as not only to do with our financial situation, but also to do with tastes, interests and education.
With regard to me, I was born working class and ?probably? still am.
I think that’s always likely to be a gap between rich and poor. But aristocracy is no guaranty of wealth anymore. Poverty is very real and the poor tend to have poorer health and less options.
Really interesting topic and questions.
My parents were born into working class backgrounds. They were part of the baby boomer generation, which in places like England may have offered a diverse range of ways to be come upwardly mobile if one wanted to make a better life for their own kids etc. However, in this strange wee place many doors - most of the civil service for instance, and many businesses and trades- were largely shut to Catholics, and so a much narrower range of ‘become middle class’ avenues existed. One of those was teaching. My parents became teachers, so did my aunts and uncles. I never really thought about it much growing up, why they’d all be in this exact same profession. Some of them aligned well with it vocationally (my dad, my mum - she was in special education), but at least one aunt and one uncle clearly were counting the days. Either way it was stressful as all hell.
Anyway, In broad social-economic terms I was therefore born into a not long established middle class situation, with my parents having secured a mortgage in a modest but nice house in a decent street, pulling in a decent wage or two (for a time my mother didn’t work, but I’m sure her three kids were exhausting enough) etc. Though my parents never let themselves get into that ‘I’m alright Jack’ mentality that can happen so easily when comparatively comfortable. I remember my dad would call people like Scottish singer Lulu a disgrace for being a Tory - ‘they forget when they hadn’t an *** in their trousers’ he’d say.
Anyway, I now live in a small bungalow that I can only afford with Co-ownership financing, I work in a modest job that I love and wouldn’t change for the world (couldn’t in fact - so very, very few other things would fit me and not burn me out), and I will never be rich - nor want to be. But I’m not supporting a child or a partner. If I were, maybe ‘working class’ would be a fair descriptor. As it is, I’m probably kind of lower middle class in a fuzzy hard to pin down way. I don’t honestly care how I’d be framed. I pay my bills, do my best, and try to be kind or at least do as little harm as possible. That’s all that matters.
To quote the Doctor (back when he was a young man in an old man’s body, the early black and white days) ‘I am a citizen of the universe, and a gentleman to boot’. Or so I’ve been told by many, one or two have maybe seen something more sinister), and while it’s been projection (holding the shadow of their past trauma in a way that deepens my own) it’s hard not to feel deeply hurt by it. And once or twice fully destroyed. But true class is remembering to honour (even when it’s extremely hard to recover) who you really are when you know you only want to be kind, so I’ll just keep authentically ‘doing’ me. And people can judge me as they will.
I'm Middle Class, the ones who REALLY ARE being phased out; by the Elites.
People have a romantic view of being Working Class, propagated by the Media and Schools. The Middle Class were branded pariahs, from the Sixties onwards.
In 1976, when Callaghan replaced Wilson, Britain needed financial assistance from the IMF. Socialism was no longer working. When the Middle Class elected Thatcher, the applecart was upset. Enter all the Labour-Loving Celebrities from the Eighties onwards.
The whole shenanigans from 2020 existed because the Elites couldn't bear the thought of Right Wing candidates, such as Boris Johnson and Donald Trump, winning elections fair-and-square. The whole thing became a freak show to discredit Non-Progressive Politicians.
"The freer the society, the larger the Middle Class!" (Ron Paul)
Social-economics is definitely a thing. Unfortunately the greatest factor in how society responds to you is class, the greatest class-divide issue is that the lines are blurred nowadays, the best of a class tend to move up the next class asap, whilst leaving the broken windows behind. A class was once something to be defended and prideful about, but now it just ensures lesser opportunity and lesser status, class is the difference between a disociable kid loitering on-a-corner waiting for the devil or having enough amenities to avoid criminality.
You forgot the under-class..
That is very difficult to answer. Class in the UK has become less pervasive, but it still informs everyday life. In Marxist terms, most of my ancestry would have been from the 'labour aristocracy', that is relatively well-paid craftsmen who had served apprenticeships. I also have a couple of Victorian 'Masters', who were industrial employers, a foundry owner and a coal mine owner, in my ancestry. I would say, overall, that I have working class origins. I certainly wasn't privately educated. What am I now? I was a trades union activist and am broadly Socialist in political outlook. However, I was a professional scientist and hold an academic doctorate, I've even been to a Buckingham Palace garden party; does that make me middle class? I rather prefer the Continental viewpoint which would put me in the intelligentsia, somewhat outside the class system. Though, in the UK this isn't really a fully recognised part of society.
As another Python said, “ we come into this world with nothing, we leave it with nothing, what have we lost… nothing .” I love the words Freddie Mercury shared with his father, “ Good words, kind deeds.”
I think it's probably a bit of both for me as well, to be honest. And then, yes, anxiety on top of that so you're extra conscious of it all.
Roy said:I like people for who they are not what they are worth.Debbie do you remember the John Cleese sketch with the Two Ronnie’s about the class system.
Nice and yes, I do
Thank you for sharing the link.
My childhood was definitely working class, my dad was very poor as a child and was determined to not be poor again. He always told us how his sister could make 4 sandwiches from one tomato, My mum always lived in Council Houses and loved her childhood. Dad worked 18 per day, he never stopped, I was in a caravan as a baby, at 18 months old dad bought a three bedroom house. I never understood why letters arrived at the house with his name and Esq, after his name. I worked out later, it showed he owned property. I am most probably middle / working class. I live in a leafy Shire county, the amount of private schools is massive, the Black Range Rover owners spend more educating two children than I earn. I like people for who they are not what they are worth. I still live, week to week, I’ve never had savings.
Debbie do you remember the John Cleese sketch with the Two Ronnie’s about the class system.
https://youtu.be/UDIHrX-Jp2E
I regard both those questions as distraction from the important issue. Acknowledging that inequality exists and then taking steps to reduce it. So in essence i do not care what the answers to those questions are. And of course you don't have to be Working Class to be in favour of reducing inequality. Tony Benn was born with a silver spoon in his gob but was a strong political friend of the Working Classes.
What an intersting topic! I'm from a middle class family, privately educated with all that entails. I'm not dropppin my Hs as this is who I am. As you rightly say, it's all boll..ks, and people are people. As far as I'm aware, The class you are is determined by breeding and NOT money. Since most of us can't trace our lineage back to 1066, we are, by definition, all plebs! So WHAT!
All my life I was thought of as the eccentric posh girl, when in fact it appears I'm autistic. The relief is indescribable - and YES, I have the confidence to tell people who don't like it, to go swivel!
Inequality exists
If you look at just one aspect of inequality, financial:
Can you remain middle class and be/become poor?
Can you remain working class and be/become wealthy?
1. Working class. My Dad was a Postman when i was a child and my Mum a school cleaner.2. I still consider myself working class. I'm a Unite Community and Labour Party member. I'm not in the workplace because of the way my Autism, Mental Health and other Health issues effect me.3. Yes Inequality exists and many people who say otherwise have an agenda.
4. See answer to number 35. It's complicated.
battybats said:I'm not sure I'll ever stop feeling like an alien around people who were raised in significantly more fortunate circumstances than I was.
That's true of me too.
The thing I hugely lack, and a lot of middle class people seem to have an abundance of, is confidence.
My lack (+ social anxiety) will also be to do with autism though, so it's complex.
I wouldn’t vote for them now. They’re basically tories in disguise. I can’t stand Kier Starmer.
Anyway I’m going to respectfully step away from this thread, I don’t know enough to contribute anything of any worth. I just know how I’d like life to be for me
The entire government needs to be taken down, they have absolutely no interest in the working class or any idea of the kind of lives we lead (nor do they care)
Of course, politics can be aligned to class too (although that's not so distinct an alignment).
I've voted Labour all my life and do vote in each General Election and although I think Labour are more 'caring' (it would be hard not to be) I tend to always feel (to a degree) let down by them once they are in power.
for people to trade skills/food etc.
That's what (some) people did in the distant past.
I have a huge distaste for all politics (I can’t remember if it’s a rule here we can’t discus this). As much as I have a huge dislike for inequality. The entire government needs to be taken down, they have absolutely no interest in the working class or any idea of the kind of lives we lead (nor do they care). The only time I became interested was when Jeremy Corbyn was up for election, and it’s the only time I have voted in my entire life. He gave me hope. It was clearly turned into a hate campaign by the tories to dirty his name.
Whether it’s unrealistic or not, my perfect life (please note the my) would be everyone to be equal, for there to be no such thing as money and for people to trade skills/food etc. There is enough food and land for everyone to live a good life. There shouldn’t be any reason for anyone to be homeless or hungry. There shouldn’t be any reason for one person to look down on another due to their assets and finances. I know realistically this cannot work, but it would be nice if it did. The world is incredibly unfair, and the way it is right now simply does not work - not if you want to include everyone and not just the fat cats at the top in charge of everything.
Though I do think it’s based heavily around finance, if you have money you can afford to live better, live in better areas, afford a better education, and likely to mix with other middle class)
There used to be the idea that people who are 'born' into money have real class whereas those who make it don't just work their way up to another class level by having the money.
The education bit you mention really matters though doesn't it.
In some ways I think the school you go to defines you and sets a mould for your life ahead (or can do unless you break out of the mould).