Verbal communication and actions are over rated.
For example, for the past 12 months while I’ve been in burnout, I haven’t heard from hardly any of my friends and barely any of my family, and I’ve got a lot of friends and family, so this isn’t usual.
This has been a true god send to me. Most of them don’t even know yet that I’m autistic and they certainly don’t know I’ve been in a burnout, they have no idea.
However, since I’ve started to feel better, I’ve had a steady but manageable (so far) stream of friends contacting me. Inviting me out for lunch, to go for a walk, to go nordic walking, cycling, one friend who knows I would love to go to Marrakesh has paid for and booked a holiday there for us in June, the same friend has also booked a hotel for us next week so we can go to listen to her favourite band who are coming over from America. None of her friends like the band so they won’t go but she knows I’d go to the end of the world for her if needs be so although I don’t like going to listen to bands, I’m happy to go with her because I know how important it is to her and she’s insisted that she pay for that as well. We might not see each other or have any kind of contact for months and months on end but she knows she can rely on me to the degree that if i’m able to help or be there for her in any way, I will be. She doesn’t have the same level of confidence in the friends she hangs out with all the time.
I have other invites coming in as well, as well as friends popping up to simply say hi, how are you. I don’t keep in regular verbal or physical contact with my friends or family but we are in touch constantly by something much stronger than our words and actions. They didn’t know that I need their friendships right now, that their friendships are what will help me on my next leg of the journey. I’ve decided to go back to India and Bali and some other countries so I’m going to be away for a while this time, maybe a few years, maybe forever, who knows, so it’s great that I get to see some of my friends before I go. And no matter where I am in the world, at least one of my family or friends (who are my family) will come and visit me. They have been to Australia, Bali, India, the Isle of Man, all the places I’ve lived in the UK, wherever I go or wherever I am my friends keep in touch with me some how. I’ve even had letters and cards arrive at remote ashrams I’ve been at in India ~ I wouldn’t even know you could do that!
I don’t keep in touch with them so much but they never let me out of their hearts and visa versa. They all encourage and support me no matter what I do. My dad is currently encouraging me to walk the Pacific Crest Trail, another friend bought me the book with the route etc and I just know that whether I want them to or not, at least one of them will come and see me while I’m walking the trail and either walk a bit of the trail with me or for me to have a little stop off with them. I know when my sister is hurt and in which part of her body and visa versa and she’s the least ‘spiritual’ person you could ever come across.
This is a few days later now and I have to admit that the messages from friends and family is starting to become a little overwhelming for me now. I’ll handle it. But what I’m saying is, if I had to rely on verbal communication, I don’t think I’d have any friends at all, but I speak to them in my language. They don’t use this language with other people and they have no idea really how it works with me but it does and I’m overflowing with gratitude at the love and friendship that’s pouring my way now, now that I’m ready to receive it.
Verbal communication hurts my head, sign language is a bit better but I much prefer to communicate in a non verbal, none sign language way. That way I don’t have to get past all your understandings and you beyond mine before we reach some level of mutual understanding.
This is why I love silent retreats and the level of friendships you form there go way deeper than the ones you make when you are verbally communicating or communicating through body language.
I love it when I go mute but that doesn’t happen very often so I have to accept that I was given the ability to speak for some reason. I have surrendered to this now so now I will be guided in whatever way I need to be and if it means using my voice, so be it. I don’t hate it like I used to. I accept I can speak and now I’m not fighting it I guess I’ll soon find out why I can. I still find verbal/body language to be a very crude and harsh form of communication though.
Sounds like things are really improving for you and it is good that people are showing such a genuine interest in you as well as caring for your well-being and needs. The fact that you have some unwritten agreement among you and your friends on how best is to communicate is wonderful. I am still trying to work on that one, but the fact that you have accomplished this brings me hope. Verbal/body language is overrated and unfortunately society revolves around it, but I still believe there is a way that NT and ND people can communicate between each other better than we do currently. Understanding and education will help with this over time.
I'm glad that things are improving for you and you are feeling better than when we last spoke. :)
Thank you Starbuck, I appreciate that. I feel so loved and cared for right now and with every message I get I feel so fortunate. I know I’m there for my friends and I don’t really ask for help, I didn’t know how to, but this feels like they are paying me back 100% plus more ~ not that I ever put a price on what I give.
And yes, I 100% agree with you. I absolutely believe there’s a way we can communicate better with nt’s. Most of my friends are nt’s and the diagnosis and the time spent in this burnout have taught me that I need to learn about others and understand them as much as I want them to understand me, as far as they can. My support worker is helping me with that as well and I’m finding ways to communicate with people that doesn’t result in arguments and me getting annoyed with them. I also see how even my brother in law, who I thought for all these years was out to wind me up, wasn’t/isn’t. I thought he was the chief winder upper and he wasn’t at all.
I’m coming to understand that my autistic traits won’t dissapear just because I have awareness of them but that I can do things to minimise meltdowns etc. For example, I might spent time with people but maybe make the visit a bit shorter and rest afterwards.
Having all that time alone, not even having to get out of bed or wash and change everyday etc has helped me tremendously as well as having the support from people on this site. I’ve still got a long way to go, my support worker keeps reminding me that I’ve got further to go than I’d like to think and that we have to keep on working the baby steps, because they are actually working. But I’m out of the darkest stage and I can see the light and that’s good enough for me.
I think we will all find our way to the light if that’s what we’re aiming for, however we get there. You’re often in my thoughts Starbuck because I know we were at a similar stage so I’m glad that my experience is giving you hope. It’s like it all just happened all of a sudden but as we know I put a lot of effort in to getting me where I am today but it worked. I’ve stopped taking the anti depressants but they were a huge huge help. I don’t think I could have got this far without them. I’m very grateful to them.
With the communication thing, I think it’s all about have total confidence in yourself. Not in who you present to the world, that’s superficial, but in that thing, whatever it is that got us this far. I’ve always had a strong connection to it, all my life, although I didn’t understand it like I do now, or I didn’t understand that others weren’t like me. It’s like when you’re so connected to that thing inside of you that is beyond thoughts and ideas, it emenates out and meets other people. It’s like, I knew I needed this period of total solitude. I knew that and had so much confidence in it, it’s like my friends responded and supported me by not contacting me in all that time. If they had been contacting me I would have been freaking out, I wouldn’t have been able to handle it. I came off all social media, unsubscribed to all email lists and started blocking them. This took me nearly a year but I achieved it so now I’m not getting emails. I just reduced my life down to nothing, basically. I rarely even get mail coming through the door now. In the past year I’ve hardly ate and when I did, it was usually chocolate yet my blood results are better than they’ve ever been. My vitamin D levels are the highest my doctor said that he’s ever seen. He said in fact, he’s never tested anybody who wasn’t deficient. And I know this is true after working with consultants and politicians in the Isle of Man to get the government to supplement everyone as a matter of course. I have never not been aneamic. Me, my mum, sister and niece are all aneamic. We take iron tablets now and again if it goes too low and we can rarely give blood, but this time, my levels were normal. I have provided my body with little nutrition, no sun light, hardly any fresh air, I have barely moved, I even have bed soars, I haven’t kept my hydration levels up, I have been frequently dehydrated, living on solpeideine to take the pain away because even though I knew a drink of water would do that, I couldn’t drink. Even if I had had to live on the streets, there was nothing that was coming between me and my burnout. Meaning I was shutting the whole world out. I knew it would work even though all those around me were worried, trying to throw labels at me, eating disorder, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, depression, anxiety, agoraphobia. I was none of those things. I presented as those things but that was a false appearance. I was simply exhausted. My first shut down of this proportion was when I was 18 months old and they put me in an isolation ward at the hospital for kids with learning difficulties, for 3 weeks, all by myself with only nurses going in to feed me. And it worked. I began to function again. And as many of us found out, receiving the diagnosis is not only a cause of celebration with the answers to so many questions, asked and unasked, it also comes with loss, grief, devastation, fear for the future and lots of other things. In the end I also stopped going to the job centre. I just told them I’m not going in any more, it’s not helping me, I need to not leave my house at all. They didn’t sanction me and they’re making it so I don’t have to go in any more. When I need that time for total shut down, I am so committed to getting that time that I will not accept anything less but I also don’t put any conditions on it. If it meant living on the streets and eating out of bins I would have done it. And I think when you’re that committed to giving yourself what you need, everyone around you seems to cooperate without you having to verbalise it. I was too tired for that. And now I’m coming out of it with a clearer mind and heart. The effort was all worth it.
Much love to you X
BlueRay said: In the end I also stopped going to the job centre. I just told them I’m not going in any more, it’s not helping me, I need to not leave my house at all. They didn’t sanction me and they’re making it so I don’t have to go in any more. When I need that time for total shut down, I am so committed to getting that time that I will not accept anything less but I also don’t put any conditions on it. If it meant living on the streets and eating out of bins I would have done it. And I think when you’re that committed to giving yourself what you need, everyone around you seems to cooperate without you having to verbalise it.
Golly! You really must walk an exalted path, BlueRay. How come you weren't sanctioned? When I failed my ESA assessment, following my suicidal breakdown, they stopped all of my benefits dead. I had nothing to pay rent or anything. I nearly went under. I appealed, so everything was reinstated - but then I had to go through all the stress of the appeal, and then later a tribunal. All of it nearly finished me off. I count myself lucky that it didn't, because it's finished off many thousands of other people. When the DWP were finally forced to reveal the figures on sanctions deaths, it was shown that over a two-year period between 2012 and 2014, 2,380 people on ESA died within a fortnight of being told they'd been deemed fit for work and would lose the benefit. An horrific proportion were suicides. But you're saying you simply went to the Job Centre and said 'I'm not coming in any more because it's not helping me', and they just happily went along with it? Even though we hear countless stories all the time of people having JSA sanctions simply because they were half an hour late turning up to sign on, or didn't go because they were ill. They clearly saw how committed you were to your shutdown, I suppose. I also find it remarkable how light you make of living on the streets and eating out of bins - as if it's a valid and wonderful life experience. Who are all these people, too, who magically co-operate when that happens? All these friends you have?
I was deliberately using that absolutist construction, Deepthought.
I noticed, I have been following the patterns of development prior to and via your thread on Realism and Nominalism, to the full crystallisation of the Absolutism here, and thus my intervention with the Relationalism.
But you're quite right, and I would normally have written something less severe.
The basic problem was Black and White thinking, and as such using the Null Hypothesis, where Black registers as nothing or experientially negative and therefore being nonsense and disagreeable, and white registers as something or experientially positive and therefore is sensible and agreeable.
Consider for instance that Alice looks at Object A and describes a Square, and Bob looks at Object A also but describes a Rectangle. Object A is an Oblong ~ who then out of Alice and Bob is correct in terms of which shape they saw?
Two answers are that Alice is correct in describing a Rectangle on the grounds of who needs anything less? And Bob is correct in describing a Square on the grounds of who needs anything more?
So in terms of normally writing something less severe:
More along the lines of 'I believe this to be nonsense.'
At this stage the same message is being repeated as before ~ with the 'spearhead' of your statement still being the word 'nonsense'. Stating that something "more along the lines of" is actually more severe in linguistic spearheading terms.
Coming to terms with this interpretive glitch was very healthy indeed though ~ in the sense of noticing it as not being the healthier option. Another consideration for instance is "This is not making sense to me", yet you clocked it very well indeed as:
More like 'I don't believe this to be true for everyone.'
Seriously Tom, absolute linguistic gold, seriously.
In terms of the "I believe this to be nonsense." as involves the darkest or most malevolent (ill-wishing) self of us; from which we learn what not to do, and in terms of "I don't believe this to be true for everyone." as involves the lightest or most benevolent (well-wishing) self of us, from which we learn what to do.
Thus as such you considered the 'nonsense' of the negative self, then the 'sense' of the positive self, and as such weighed up and balanced out as the neutral self.
I think indignation made me slip a little, too.
Well with your little slip of indignation with us, the Child-Parent dichotomy problem became a well and balanced Adult solution.
I think it’s probably permanently Deepthought. I know the decision to leave the group was initially due to my autistic black and white thinking, but I also don’t feel as comfortable on here any more. If I can’t talk freely, what is the point of talking, is my way of thinking?
I wouldn’t dare, I’ve already been accused of being a witch who has magic powers and who thinks that all the people who aren’t witches are rubbish. I wouldn’t dare talk about them on here. I already feel as if I’ve been burned at the stake, hung drawn and quartered. I no longer feel safe. I built up a good level of trust and support on this site, over time, enough to make me feel safe, only to be torn down big time so I won’t try that again. I just wrote a post about how I think, all be it very basic, but that might explain what you’re asking, in a little way, so I’ll post that.
They’re not ‘Einstein’s’ laws though, anymore than the law of electricity belongs to the person who first discovered it. That person may have discovered it, but the laws of electricity are universal. Electricity is there for any one of us to take advantage of if we learn how it works, or get someone else to learn it and share the benefits with us, such as light, heat, power etc. We still get those things, even though we don’t know how they work, we still enjoy the benefits of the law of electricity even though we don’t understand every fine detail of them. Einstein understood the laws but they are not his.
BlueRay said: I know the decision to leave the group was initially due to my autistic black and white thinking, but I also don’t feel as comfortable on here any more.
Well after what happened, I am in no way surprised at the moment that you do not feel comfortable talking as freely as you have before, very few people do when it comes to being treated disrespectfully regarding their individual outlook on life.
Such discomfort is meant 'not' in order to test us, but in order to 'rouse' us from our Autistic benightedness (or ignorance) about how to communicate in more socially amenable ways.
It helps to keep secure in mind that there are Conscious, Psychical, Mental and Physical languages and terms for relating with others, who are likewise familiar, or wish to learn. Thus there are four types of people who relate with these languages and terms, down to those who just use the Physical language base:
Type Fours (or T4s) have a developed sense of all experiential ranges of awareness, and use all language bases ~ so are Conscious, Psychical, Mental and Physical. T4s are by proportion enlightened Facilitators, and are the lesser minority of the population, at way less than 1%.
Type Threes (or T3s) have Conscious, Psychical, Mental and Physical awareness, and develop their Conscious range of experience for the more evolved, or else are more evolving their Psychical. Mental and Physical sensibilities. T3s are by proportion intuitional Leaders, and are the greater minority of the human population, at 9% approximately.
Type Twos are (or T2s) have Conscious, Psychical, Mental and Physical awareness, and develop their Psychical range of experience, for the more evolved, or else are more evolving their Mental and Physical sensibilities. T2s are more by proportion conceptual Supporters, and are the lesser majority of the human population, at around 30% approximately.
Type Ones (or T1s) have Conscious, Psychical, Mental and Physical awareness, and develop their Mental range of experience, for the more evolved, or else are evolving more their Physical sensibilities. T1s are more by proportion instinctual Followers, and are the greater majority of the human population, at around 60% approximately.
So what you do know and can do (as a T3 to become a T4) is not possible for all (particularly T1s and T2s), and what you consider to be an adaptable state of mind (such as the previously mentioned poverty thing) is for most also an immutable state of actual body and environment ~ that is very concretely and very objectively real for them. Nothing they do can ever change that, T1s live and breath physical and material poverty as is their path through evolution ~ whether rich or poor, for they are the youngest of the 'Children of Humanity', and need providing for as Followers ~ hence T2s are Supporters, T3s are Leaders and T4s are Facilitators.
[Autism involves being at least a T3, although T3s can be more like T2s or T1s ~ consistently, or intermitently]
So when you stated that you get what you want to survive, it is lucky that what you want is actually what you 'need' in evolutional terms, and as such you are in harmony with the facilitational frequency of your life course ~ as has just included here a sociological clanger! I have had quite a few myself just like yours here ;-) and they are good to learn from, really they are, especially with others who can relate :-)
Learn from not run from maybe?
BlueRay said:Einstein understood the laws but they are not his.
Not quite ~ the laws of (hu)man(ity) come from the 'principle' objects and states of affairs observed and experimented with repeatedly through nature, so Einstein's laws (such as Relativity and Special Relativity) are his as he published on them. There are no laws of nature though, only principles.
So there are the principles of nature, and the laws of (hu)man(ity).
I’m not talking about the laws of relativity. That was only a fraction of his work and what he studied.
Yes, the universe works on principles but the principles work through the law. There has to be a law and that law is universal, not only to mankind but to the whole of the universe which man is not separate from, so it applies to man but not only to man.
Also spent time homeless
and in a hostel for the homeless
BlueRay said:I’m talking about the laws of relativity. That was only a fraction of his work and what he studied.
I only really read a few of Einstein's theories as it goes ~ the relativity and a unified field stuff, at school in physics, and bits and pieces over the years regarding science in general. I was more influenced by Tesla towards the quantum super-positioning, correlation and entanglement related stuff via Bohr, Planck and Schrodinger etcetera ~ what with standard model of physics not quite accounting for what has been found to be going on, and all that involving String and Holofield Theory.
BlueRay said:Yes, the universe works on principles but the principles work through the law. There has to be a law and that law is universal, not only to mankind but to the whole of the universe which man is not separate from, so it applies to man but not only to man.
Not quite again, being that by definition: 'A law is a rule of action that is established by an authority ~ after the constant order of a particular phenomena has been observed or experimented with in nature.' in the scientific context according to the Chambers Dictionary I think it was.
Also from the sociological context according to Wikipedia on: 'Law is a system of rules that are created and enforced through social or governmental institutions to regulate behavior. Law is a system that regulates and ensures that individuals or a community adhere to the will of the state.'
The running theme obviously is that laws are for governing people in their actions or behaviour.
But extending or projecting the notion that laws govern nature is a Roman Masoretic inheritance (not excluding others) involving the miss-transliteration of the five 'Consolidations' (as being pledges or oaths) mentioned by Jesus ~ to become the ten 'commandments' of the Masoretes (formally the Pharisees) rather than so much Moses or Jesus themselves actually therefore.
The Pharisees were really keen on editing out the Feminine from the sacred scrolls, and switching the spiritual for the material and thus the law of man replaced the 'teaching' or 'wisdom' of the wise Goddess about the loving God ~ for the sake of a wrathful god of jealousy and adoration greed.
Essentially in stating that law or laws are universal, you have as the expression goes "Put the Descartes (or the cart) before the horse" ~ as Descartes was infamous for mistaking his black for his white and thinking that because he thought he as such existed, rather than he existed and thereby thought ~ what with objects coming before subjects (in order to be named and identified) and nature (reproduction) coming before nurture (upbringing) and so fourth.
So the principles of nature give rise to the laws of (hu)man(ity) in concrete objective terms.
The description of laws is accurate. However, the natural universal laws and the commandments that Jesus spoke of are irrefutable, they are like the laws of electricity, they are exact and precise. Jesus was wholly against anybody making oaths to anybody, ever. He said to do so, you cut off your connection to your true nature.
This universe could not continue if it was not run by laws. They are what makes a tulip seed into a tulip. They are the laws of cause and effect. This was the bulk of Einstein’s work, little of which was ever published.
As for man made laws, I have never and will never recognise them as little more than guidelines for people who don’t think for themselves, they have no meaning for me. I live by universal laws and because of that, I always get whatever I want in life, whenever I want it and man made laws have never got in my way.
BlueRay said:The description of laws is accurate. However, the natural universal laws and the commandments that Jesus spoke of are irrefutable, they are like the laws of electricity, they are exact and precise. Jesus was wholly against anybody making oaths to anybody, ever. He said to do so, you cut off your connection to your true nature.
The natural universal 'principles' as 'consolidations' Jesus spoke about for your father in the heavens that a 'covenant' (or agreement) be formed with God in principle, with the first being to honour/respect the wife of him and the Mother of you ~ by aspiring to firstly love the spirit of you in the heart of you, in the soul of you and in the mind of you. This is the greatest of the consolidations. And the second greatest likewise is ~ aspire to love the neighbour of you as doing so the self of you. For on the embodiment of these dual consolidations ~ all of the teaching suspends and the prophets.
Oaths yes are not too be made, wrong word session on my part there. Jesus was not though against people making covenants/agreements or consolidations/pledges/compacts/contracts/promises, but if one's promises are made in respect of god and humans ~ breaking those 'covenants' was not advisable. Consider for instance that Jesus said: "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's." Matthew 22:21. Or in other words pay dues to the Father of you in the heavens and to the Mother of you embodying the society of you upon the earth.
Keeping covenants strengthens the connection to the true nature of one as a human of earth (in terms of flesh) and a being of heaven (in terms of spirit) as living in harmony.
BlueRay said:This universe could not continue if it was not run by laws. They are what makes a tulip seed into a tulip. They are the laws of cause and effect. This was the bulk of Einstein’s work, little of which was ever published.
Recalling that 'Law is a system of rules that are created and enforced through social or governmental institutions to regulate behaviour. Law is a system that regulates and ensures that individuals or a community adhere to the will of the state.' - thus it is in stating that 'This universe could not continue if it was not run by laws.' you have done the absolute classic that involves societal governance running the universe. :-)
Of course humans have not been been around long enough for laws to have had anything to do with running the universe, and if they did the universe would not exist as there would be nothing to enable no one to discover nothing and to not state that nothing ran nothing! ;-)
What makes a seed into a tulip is the principles of nature, e.g. energetic field frequencies and the geometric integrities of the atoms and molecules involved ~ which in terms of being 'recorded' systematic processes and only 'systematically recorded processes' we describe these as laws. Laws then are the descriptions of natural processes but laws are not the natural processes themselves. So basically the proofs of existential processes do not govern existence.
BlueRay said:As for man made laws, I have never and will never recognise them as little more than guidelines for people who don’t think for themselves, they have no meaning for me.
Aside from laws all being (hu)man(ly) made, mistaking laws or theories for principles is commonly and easily done, and you do recognise the laws of man ~ or you would not be using them to validate your statements, such as with Einstein's stuff for instance.
BlueRay said: I live by universal laws and because of that, I always get whatever I want in life, whenever I want it and man made laws have never got in my way.
I live by or more concisely in universal love and wisdom myself, working with needs rather than so much wants, and being that the laws of society are to protect basic rights and freedoms, and to treat everyone fairly ~ they have not as such gotten in the way of me either, as they have been really helpful in numerous ways.
I’ll answer these points one by one but on different threads.
I’ll put your name at the beginning so you are less likely to miss the comments because this is really interesting. I don’t understand what you’re saying, but I’m going to do my best. And maybe after a bit of toing and froing I might gain more understanding.
I don’t recognise societal laws, they have no interest to me. So when I talk about laws, I’m talking universal laws, but the description remains accurate.
Law is a system of rules that are created and enforced, through social or governmental institutions, to regulate behaviour. Law is a system that regulates and ensures that individuals or a community adhere to the will of the state.
The [natural] laws, is a system of unbreakabke rules that were created ... to regulate behaviour. These laws aren’t enforced, people have free will to follow the laws or not. They are not judged for this in anyway. The laws are a system that regulates and ensures that individuals or a community adhere to the will of the state ~ the state being the creater of the laws, for ease of conversation let’s call that god ~ unless you have any negative connotations attached to that word?
So for example, love thy neighbour as yourself. That is a law. If you follow this law you will experience bliss, freedom and happiness ~ provided you ‘know thyself’. If you don’t, you will experience any and all of frustration, jealousy, envy, hatred etc etc.
Nobody will ‘punish’ you if you don’t live by this law, you won’t be judged, but you will not experience the constant bliss, freedom and happiness it gives you in return.
If you don’t follow it, you will simply reap what you sow. You will plant the seed (the cause, the harmful thoughts) and you will experience the effects of those thoughts.
It’s a simple law but most people chose to ignore it and as such, they do not experience the freedom.
Humans create their own laws. They are not based on love and freedom, they are based on things like control, greed, power etc and as such, I do not recognise them.
I live by the law of love and as it continues to be proven in my life, this law is far greater than any human man made law so I have no reason to recognise or abide by man made laws.
Ok, so this first part, I can’t understand. I don’t know what you mean by ‘principles as consolidations’ ~ I don’t know what a consolidation is and why can’t a principle just be a principal?
I don’t understand the part about Jesus asking people to form agreements with god in principle? I don’t understand that. He said we are god.
He didn’t say aspire to love the spirit in you he said this is the law, know thyself, love thyself and love all others as yourself and you will live in bliss, happiness and freedom and you will have all that you want, and more, in this life. We were given free will to chose to live by the law or not. He was simply telling people what the law was and how to achieve it.
Render to Ceasar would mean to render nothing to him because what does he have? Nothing.
So all that part was largely confusing to me.
In terms of the tulip. You call it the ‘principles of nature’ - another word for that could be law. This is what I mean by law.
Laws aren’t the natural processes ~ this is where I get confused. Let me try to understand ...
Electricity works through the laws of electricity - would you agree? If those laws aren’t followed, someone could at best not get any electricity and at worst they could electrocute themselves. You can’t play around with these laws. You can’t say I’ll follow them one day and not the next. If you want to have the benefits of electricity, such as light, you have to follow the laws.
Like wise, the tulip seed follows the laws of its nature and becomes a fully grown tulip. When all the ingredients are there, soil, water, sun, they will work together along the law of nature to enable the seed to reach its end stage, before it whither and dies.
I have no clue what that means - that the proof of existential processes do not govern existence. I can’t make any sense of it. Sorry.
I have no idea what you mean by mistaking laws for principles.
Are you saying all laws are made by man? If so, we have a different understanding of what a law is. I know there are man made laws, I don’t pay them much attention, but I know they’re there and I work with them in my work when I work for the government. But they aren’t the only laws and they’re certainly not the laws that I live by.
I live by the laws of know thyself, love thy neighbour, unity, love, the law of cause and effect, those kinds of laws, none of which were made by man. Man didn’t make the law of electricity but he discovered it and made use of it but he didn’t make it. I now drive within speed limits and follows the laws of the road to a greater degree, things like that. I recognise them but they don’t rule my life.
DeepthoughtOh absolutely, I love human laws. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not belittling them in anyway. They are a necessity because currently, most people don’t think for themselves and until they do, we absolutely need human laws.
Like you, they have been helpful to me in so many ways and were key to me getting my clients what they needed when working as a social worker. So I’m not putting them down in anyway and it’s fun to watch as they get more severe as people are beginning to learn how to think for themselves. But it doesn’t matter how severe they get, they will eventually dissolve to the degree that people start to think for themselves and no longer allow themselves to be controlled by them, they will lose their purpose.
BlueRay said:I’ll put your name at the beginning so you are less likely to miss the comments because this is really interesting. I don’t understand what you’re saying, but I’m going to do my best. And maybe after a bit of toing and froing I might gain more understanding.
You have already the understanding ~ it's just the comprehension that we all need and eventually get one way or another with or without teacher as student and student as teacher, and all that sort of thing involving the meaning of absolute being as infinitely becoming ~ God through Goddess or energy through matter.
BlueRay said:I don’t recognise societal laws, they have no interest to me. So when I talk about laws, I’m talking universal laws, but the description remains accurate.
Laws as previously discussed are recorded descriptions of particular processes that occur in material nature, for the sake of specialised fields of reference or information.
Universal law by definition includes every law of societal law also, and societal law is used for social reference when ignorance prevails.
Laws are not required whilst universal wisdom is as love embodied or as energy equally manifest. Look and listen for instance to all that surrounds you and know that laws are not involved but the principles of fluid dynamics and fixed mechanics of nature as energised forces are.
BlueRay said:Law is a system of rules that are created and enforced, through social or governmental institutions, to regulate behaviour. Law is a system that regulates and ensures that individuals or a community adhere to the will of the state.
BlueRay said:The [natural] laws, is a system of unbreakabke rules that were created ... to regulate behaviour.
The diamagnetic and electromagnetic forces of nature organise the geometric progressions of energy via crystal-mineral formations of matter, that regulate fluid and fixed facilitations such as clouds and snow, cerebrospinal fluid and bones, lava and rock and every thing else above and below you.
BlueRay said:These laws aren’t enforced, people have free will to follow the laws or not.
These forces are emergent energy as being light, and convergent matter as being dark, and people can choose between the manifestation of light inside of them, and the dark outside of them.
BlueRay said:They are not judged for this in anyway.
Judgement only applies to intentions to do things or not, during the course of doing things and after having done things.
BlueRay said:The laws are a system that regulates and ensures that individuals or a community adhere to the will of the state ~ the state being the creater of the laws, for ease of conversation let’s call that god ~ unless you have any negative connotations attached to that word?
The forces of light and dark govern and balance individual and collective harmonisation such as from atoms to galaxies ~ through the absolute being as infinitely becomes. For the ease of conversation let's not call it "god" because I might be referring to the spirit of me, or the spirit of you or any other spirit in anything else that is not wholly the absolute being of infinite becoming. But "God" with an upper case 'G' will do when referring to the Allparent or All-being of All-becoming ~ although some state "GOD" is the better option, being that there is the heavenly assembly of Gods, and the earthly assemblies of gods. Some use the term "angel" regarding human beings rather than god to save spoken confusions.
BlueRay said:So for example, love thy neighbour as yourself. That is a law. If you follow this law you will experience bliss, freedom and happiness ~ provided you ‘know thyself’. If you don’t, you will experience any and all of frustration, jealousy, envy, hatred etc etc.
Bliss and agony, freedom and restriction and happiness and sadness are all polar opposites resulting in the other, whilst developing a relationship with the love of the spirit in heart, soul and mind ~ balances out and compensates for the differences between those of ourselves, and thereby others as well in terms of harmonic resonance.
Frustration ~ feeling distressed about an inability to change or achieve something ~ is a regulum of human physiological experience, but it need not remain as a prolonged psychological issue. Tensions in the body for instance frustrate free movement, such as when we are physically tired, sick or injured, hence the need to care for ourselves, and better moderate our actions.
Envy ~ feeling deprived of what someone else enjoys having, and jealousy ~ feeling hostile toward a rival or someone enjoying an advantage ~ these are socially fostered and personally adopted behaviourisms from childhood, involving genetic tendencies also, that may be better moderated, diminished or even wholly relinquished.
Hatred is another part of the human experiential regulum ~ such as hating the smell or taste of particular type of food, drink or medicie, and most people think they hate particular people or groups of people or whatever else, but this is actually as such loathing, which may be better managed or relinquished also.
BlueRay said:Nobody will ‘punish’ you if you don’t live by this law, you won’t be judged, but you will not experience the constant bliss, freedom and happiness it gives you in return.
Already and just covered.
BlueRay said:If you don’t follow it, you will simply reap what you sow. You will plant the seed (the cause, the harmful thoughts) and you will experience the effects of those thoughts.
Well leading a life embodying at one extent love as wisdom, or following a life embodying lusts (desires) as ignorance at the other extent ~ involves sowing what one will reap as such one way or another either way, and this is so regardless of what anyone does in the neutral, positive or negative sense.
BlueRay said:It’s a simple law but most people chose to ignore it and as such, they do not experience the freedom.
Everyone experiences freedom, whether they are aware of it or they want it or not, only most people are fearful of it and individuality also, as they need instead the stimulation of or the distraction from themselves by way of regular interactions with others collectively. Most people cannot function independently as they are followers, supporters or leaders of groups genetically to the core, and only a few can go and do the way of the wilderness.
BlueRay said:Humans create their own laws. They are not based on love and freedom, they are based on things like control, greed, power etc and as such, I do not recognise them.
The law as system of rules and regulations is not based on things like control, greed and power, the tidiest description aside from the "bind" ( as I'd use unite) that I most identify with so far is:
LAW. Laws are rules that bind all people living in a community. Laws protect our general safety, and ensure our rights as >subjects or< citizens against abuses by other people, by organizations, and by the government itself. We have laws to help provide for our general safety.
So it is more that controlling, greedy and power hunger people use the law as they do more negatively, and that people who have a healthy sense of community and society use the law as they do more positively. The law is neutral.
I think rather than law, you are considering more the subject matter of morals and ethics ~ with morals being what individual's believe to be right and wrong, and ethics being societal codes of conduct in social and professional environments.
In respect of Law, do other than to as the expression goes "Throw the baby out with the bathwater" perhaps?
BlueRay said:I live by the law of love and as it continues to be proven in my life, this law is far greater than any human man made law so I have no reason to recognise or abide by man made laws.
I think more that you live by the spirit or power of love, which is harmonic rather than as you describe being selective or exclusive, for as such you are not describing love, but more passions and desires to rebel against some aspects of social conformity and societal values.
Thus you have become in writing a law unto yourself, rejecting then also the divinely inspired fundamental laws made by Humans as records for reference, guidance and as above described and quoted regarding safety from harm, and recourse when harm is being or has been done.
Remember that many types of people read these threads and posts, and through which some find reason to live by what is written. Remember also that T1's Follow, T2s Support and T3s Lead more or less by habit what most triggers or stimulates them to do so.
The main problem is setting standards and reasons for rebellion against the law firstly devalues it, and secondly gives further stimulus for others to reject and ignore what it stands for also.
Consider for example from the NIV1984 Bible version of the first book of Peter chapter 2, verses 13 through to 16 as follows:
13.) Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14.) or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.
15.) For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.
BlueRay said:I have no idea what you mean by mistaking laws for principles.
Well the manifest forces or events of nature come before scientists recognise and record them as laws, with written laws then being secondary to the principle forces or events of nature.
BlueRay said:Are you saying all laws are made by man?
Yes, very much indeed, I am stating that all laws are man made or recorded and verified as being constant states of affairs in nature, or requisite states of affairs in society.
BlueRay said:If so, we have a different understanding of what a law is.
You are mistaking the man made descriptive laws of nature for the actual forces or events of nature.
BlueRay said:I know there are man made laws, I don’t pay them much attention, but I know they’re there and I work with them in my work when I work for the government. But they aren’t the only laws and they’re certainly not the laws that I live by.
We live by the forces of nature and the laws of humanity describing them.
BlueRay said:I live by the laws of know thyself, love thy neighbour, unity, love, the law of cause and effect, those kinds of laws, none of which were made by man. Man didn’t make the law of electricity but he discovered it and made use of it but he didn’t make it. I now drive within speed limits and follows the laws of the road to a greater degree, things like that. I recognise them but they don’t rule my life.
Human laws are not meant to rule your life, that is your responsibility.
BlueRay said:Oh absolutely, I love human laws. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not belittling them in anyway. They are a necessity because currently, most people don’t think for themselves and until they do, we absolutely need human laws.
I am not getting you wrong ~ as I know where you are coming from, it is just that your writing style involves absolutes in the positive and negative senses. As for instance you have in different post shifted from Child ego states of mind to Parental ego states ~ where you have been stating like many do quite opposite and thus contradictory points of view at different stages.
My favourite example of me being hypocritical was as a child when I shouted at the very top of my voice that I was not shouting. I did so 'so' loudly enough I actually managed to hear myself ~ which fascinated me intensely. This was one of the many reasons that led to me get into Transactional Analysis (or TA) particularly, and psychology in general.
Now the basic model for TA is called the PAC model, as follows:
P = Parent ego-states ~ behaviours, thoughts and feelings copied from parents or parent figures
A = Adult ego-states ~ behaviours, thoughts and feelings that are direct responses for the here-and-now
C = Child ego-states ~ behaviours, thoughts and feelings that are replayed from childhood
Just as very basic guide, in that Adult ego-states deal with the here now ~ Child ego-states tend to include 'always' statements, and Parent ego-states tend to include 'never' statements, although of course there are cross overs.
Autistic Black and White Thinking involves Child ego-states getting contradicted by Parent ego-states, and vice-versa, rather than being mediated and reasonably integrated by the Adult ego-states ~ as need to be developed to become more functionally viable.
Simply learning to recognise the difference between being in Child or Parent states of mind ~ goes a long way to developing the Adult ego states.
BlueRay said:Like you, they have been helpful to me in so many ways and were key to me getting my clients what they needed when working as a social worker. So I’m not putting them down in anyway and it’s fun to watch as they get more severe as people are beginning to learn how to think for themselves.
So when you state that, "I am not putting [laws] down in any way" [P] you contradict yourself with, "its fun to watch as they get more severe" [C] which puts laws down as being severe. Then comes as follows:
BlueRay said:But it doesn’t matter how severe they get, they will eventually dissolve to the degree that people start to think for themselves and no longer allow themselves to be controlled by them, they will lose their purpose.
So in the here and now sense you write about not putting laws down in any way, then describe their severity and your hope they will become useless. Laws are not just about controlling people, for they also guide us as to how things are done for the greater good.
Ok, I see what’s happening now. We effectively live in two different worlds and we are therefore talking two different languages.
I understand what you’re saying regarding child/parent ego etc. We have a similar understanding in metaphysics but it is a deeper understanding to what you describe.
Depending on who I work with, I might use a more psychological approach, as you described, to help the client understand their situation, in the beginning at least. But always metaphysical principles, which work along natural laws, will underly everything I do with them.
For example, I work with the law of cause and effect which might at first (the cause) appear in the physical realm but I will get to the real cause.
For example, if Jo said something really unkind and hurtful to John which resulted in John being upset. John might think that Jo is the cause of his upset. But that’s not true. Jo has no power to cause upset in John.
The upset is in John and was triggered by what Jo said. If this root cause is not addressed and dissolved, John will continue to meet people in his life who upset him.
Even if he were to deal with the perceived cause of the upset, i.e. he made it up with Jo etc, he understood why Jo said what he said etc and he forgives him. A similar situation would reoccur in his life because he hasn’t dealt with the root cause.
If man made laws are made to protect people, why aren’t they working? And if man knew himself, loved himself and loved his neighbour as himself, who would he need to be protected from?