Verbal/body language communication is over rated

Hi Former Member

Sounds like things are really improving for you and it is good that people are showing such a genuine interest in you as well as caring for your well-being and needs.  The fact that you have some unwritten agreement among you and your friends on how best is to communicate is wonderful.  I am still trying to work on that one, but the fact that you have accomplished this brings me hope.  Verbal/body language is overrated and unfortunately society revolves around it, but I still believe there is a way that NT and ND people can communicate between each other better than we do currently.  Understanding and education will help with this over time.

I'm glad that things are improving for you and you are feeling better than when we last spoke.  :)

Thank you Starbuck, I appreciate that. I feel so loved and cared for right now and with every message I get I feel so fortunate. I know I’m there for my friends and I don’t really ask for help, I didn’t know how to, but this feels like they are paying me back 100% plus more ~ not that I ever put a price on what I give. 

And yes, I 100% agree with you. I absolutely believe there’s a way we can communicate better with nt’s. Most of my friends are nt’s and the diagnosis and the time spent in this burnout have taught me that I need to learn about others and understand them as much as I want them to understand me, as far as they can. My support worker is helping me with that as well and I’m finding ways to communicate with people that doesn’t result in arguments and me getting annoyed with them. I also see how even my brother in law, who I thought for all these years was out to wind me up, wasn’t/isn’t. I thought he was the chief winder upper and he wasn’t at all. 

I’m coming to understand that my autistic traits won’t dissapear just because I have awareness of them but that I can do things to minimise meltdowns etc. For example, I might spent time with people but maybe make the visit a bit shorter and rest afterwards. 

Having all that time alone, not even having to get out of bed or wash and change everyday etc has helped me tremendously as well as having the support from people on this site. I’ve still got a long way to go, my support worker keeps reminding me that I’ve got further to go than I’d like to think and that we have to keep on working the baby steps, because they are actually working. But I’m out of the darkest stage and I can see the light and that’s good enough for me. 

I think we will all find our way to the light if that’s what we’re aiming for, however we get there. You’re often in my thoughts Starbuck because I know we were at a similar stage so I’m glad that my experience is giving you hope. It’s like it all just happened all of a sudden but as we know I put a lot of effort in to getting me where I am today but it worked. I’ve stopped taking the anti depressants but they were a huge huge help. I don’t think I could have got this far without them. I’m very grateful to them. 

With the communication thing, I think it’s all about have total confidence in yourself. Not in who you present to the world, that’s superficial, but in that thing, whatever it is that got us this far. I’ve always had a strong connection to it, all my life, although I didn’t understand it like I do now, or I didn’t understand that others weren’t like me. It’s like when you’re so connected to that thing inside of you that is beyond thoughts and ideas, it emenates out and meets other people. It’s like, I knew I needed this period of total solitude. I knew that and had so much confidence in it, it’s like my friends responded and supported me by not contacting me in all that time. If they had been contacting me I would have been freaking out, I wouldn’t have been able to handle it. I came off all social media, unsubscribed to all email lists and started blocking them. This took me nearly a year but I achieved it so now I’m not getting emails. I just reduced my life down to nothing, basically. I rarely even get mail coming through the door now.  In the past year I’ve hardly ate and when I did, it was usually chocolate yet my blood results are better than they’ve ever been. My vitamin D levels are the highest my doctor said that he’s ever seen. He said in fact, he’s never tested anybody who wasn’t deficient. And I know this is true after working with consultants and politicians in the Isle of Man to get the government to supplement everyone as a matter of course. I have never not been aneamic. Me, my mum, sister and niece are all aneamic. We take iron tablets now and again if it goes too low and we can rarely give blood, but this time, my levels were normal. I have provided my body with little nutrition, no sun light, hardly any fresh air, I have barely moved, I even have bed soars, I haven’t kept my hydration levels up, I have been frequently dehydrated, living on solpeideine to take the pain away because even though I knew a drink of water would do that, I couldn’t drink. Even if I had had to live on the streets, there was nothing that was coming between me and my burnout. Meaning I was shutting the whole world out. I knew it would work even though all those around me were worried, trying to throw labels at me, eating disorder, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, depression, anxiety, agoraphobia. I was none of those things. I presented as those things but that was a false appearance. I was simply exhausted. My first shut down of this proportion was when I was 18 months old and they put me in an isolation ward at the hospital for kids with learning difficulties, for 3 weeks, all by myself with only nurses going in to feed me. And it worked. I began to function again. And as many of us found out, receiving the diagnosis is not only a cause of celebration with the answers to so many questions, asked and unasked, it also comes with loss, grief, devastation, fear for the future and lots of other things. In the end I also stopped going to the job centre. I just told them I’m not going in any more, it’s not helping me, I need to not leave my house at all. They didn’t sanction me and they’re making it so I don’t have to go in any more. When I need that time for total shut down, I am so committed to getting that time that I will not accept anything less but I also don’t put any conditions on it. If it meant living on the streets and eating out of bins I would have done it. And I think when you’re that committed to giving yourself what you need, everyone around you seems to cooperate without you having to verbalise it. I was too tired for that. And now I’m coming out of it with a clearer mind and heart. The effort was all worth it. 

Much love to you X 

In the end I also stopped going to the job centre. I just told them I’m not going in any more, it’s not helping me, I need to not leave my house at all. They didn’t sanction me and they’re making it so I don’t have to go in any more. When I need that time for total shut down, I am so committed to getting that time that I will not accept anything less but I also don’t put any conditions on it. If it meant living on the streets and eating out of bins I would have done it. And I think when you’re that committed to giving yourself what you need, everyone around you seems to cooperate without you having to verbalise it.

Golly!  You really must walk an exalted path, BlueRay.  How come you weren't sanctioned?  When I failed my ESA assessment, following my suicidal breakdown, they stopped all of my benefits dead.  I had nothing to pay rent or anything.  I nearly went under.  I appealed, so everything was reinstated - but then I had to go through all the stress of the appeal, and then later a tribunal.  All of it nearly finished me off.  I count myself lucky that it didn't, because it's finished off many thousands of other people.  When the DWP were finally forced to reveal the figures on sanctions deaths, it was shown that over a two-year period between 2012 and 2014, 2,380 people on ESA died within a fortnight of being told they'd been deemed fit for work and would lose the benefit. An horrific proportion were suicides.   But you're saying you simply went to the Job Centre and said 'I'm not coming in any more because it's not helping me', and they just happily went along with it?  Even though we hear countless stories all the time of people having JSA sanctions simply because they were half an hour late turning up to sign on, or didn't go because they were ill.  They clearly saw how committed you were to your shutdown, I suppose.  I also find it remarkable how light you make of living on the streets and eating out of bins - as if it's a valid and wonderful life experience.  Who are all these people, too, who magically co-operate when that happens?  All these friends you have?

Thank you Tom. I’ve calmed down now and I know that the way I speak can provoke strong reactions in people, I just didn’t expect to receive the comments I did, but I’ve calmed down now. 

What I talk about are universal truths, proved scientifically by people like Einstein. What the public know about Einstein is very little compared to the work he was involved in which was learning more about the universal laws. 

I’m not saying people are settled and happy to be on the streets, although many are, for certain periods of time anyway while that is the best thing for them.  If I had been settled with it I’d still be there now, but complaining about it and thinking of it as a terrible situation doesn’t help anybody. It took me many years and several attempts to get off the streets, off the drugs but I kept on going until I achieved it. I was never ‘happy’ with the situation but my inner happiness which depends on nothing outside of me ensures that I am happy, truly happy, no matter what my circumstances are so when I’ve been homeless I have simply accepted that I am homeless just now and I would make the best of it. 

I might also take a rest. The conversations have been so helpful to me. The posts I started were to help me. I don’t always talk like that but that part was for me so I needed to talk openly. Everybody who contributed helped me more than they will probably ever know. 

I do know the universal laws. For whatever reason (I don’t try and work it out anymore) I was born with a connection to my spiritual self and the universe and I had no connection to my body. I’ve had to learn how to be human and although I’ve always got what I wanted in life, living in a world where nobody speaks your language (as many people with autism can relate to) is not always easy. However, my diagnosis changed all that and the recent conversations, although they didn’t end so well, have given me the confidence and the go ahead to be me. Not just as an autistic person but who I am, living on this different dimension, as well. 

You’ve got a book to write anyway, we’re all waiting for it to hit the shelves so we can get our copies

Perhaps Tom, it is you that needs to spend some time speaking with  people who are homeless.

I have spent several working years speaking to homeless people, in shelters, etc - or even simply of my own free will.  These people included my own father.  My response was provoked by my own such experiences.  In all of that time, and with all of the many people I've met, I've rarely met a person who wanted their homeless situation to continue, and felt somehow 'settled' with it - or who had accepted it openly and regarded it as a wonderful experience.  I certainly never met anyone who viewed sitting on a pavement as no different to sitting in a house.  Most would have given anything to get back to a situation where they had a roof over their heads, security, and an income of some form.  Many had mental health issues, which were often what had led them to the streets.  Many, too, had substance misuse issues to deal with.  Again, addictions had often led them to where they were.  And once you're on the street, such problems and issues very often get much worse.

Being a vulnerable person myself, I naturally identify with vulnerable people - and animals - and for over thirty years have been active in their behalf in many respects.  My life-commitment is to helping the vulnerable.  So when I read something - subjective, but presented as some kind of universal truth - that appears to trivialise their experience, then I react.

I accept that each person's experience of just about everything on earth is different.  So when I say 'appears to trivialise', I mean it subjectively.

I, too, hope you won't leave, BlueRay.  As someone who's also been a victim of bullying, I know what it's like to feel that you are in a hostile environment.  I'm sorry if you felt that my attitude was bullying.  Truly sorry.  I hope you can understand why I reacted the way I did.  I think it might be time for me to give things a rest, too.

Deepthought said:

One person's nonsense is another person's lived experience. So just as you find BlueRay's description nonsense, I have experienced much like it and in no way as a desperate homeless person. I was homeless and it was a matter of facts, and I paid diligent attention to the necessity of them, eating from skips, waking up in frozen clothes and so on and so on.

I was deliberately using that absolutist construction, Deepthought.  But you're quite right, and I would normally have written something less severe.  More along the lines of 'I believe this to be nonsense.'  In fact, I wouldn't even have said that.  More like 'I don't believe this to be true for everyone.'  I think indignation made me slip a little, too.

It’s ok Deepthought, I’m out of here

Well that would be nice if you meant only for the time being in the temporary sense perhaps?

It’s ok Deepthought, I’m out of here. I’ve never been met with so much hostility and name calling before in all my life. Like you, when I’ve been homeless I’ve been homeless, it’s a fact, and like you I accepted that fact and paid diligent attention to what I needed to do, I didn’t sit around crying about how terrible my life was. If I did that, I’d still be on the streets, I’d still be in and out of prison. Instead of crying about how terrible it is to be homeless I did something about it. 

Who is actually trying to ‘lead’ anybody?!?!?!? I’m assuming you’re referring to me and if so, I can assure you, I’m no leader, I am not trying to lead anybody. If anybody takes my musings, who takes what I do on here, i.e. sharing what’s going on in my head to try and get more understanding around my autism diagnosis, as me trying to lead them, I can only assume the person who takes my ramblings as that as somebody who is so desperately wanting to be lead that they confuse an autistic person sharing their experiences in the hope of gaining more awareness as somebody who is trying to lead them. I can’t see how anybody could take what I say as me trying to lead them anywhere. 

To ‘believe’ something, a person must doubt it otherwise why would they have to believe it. I would never get anybody to try to believe any thing, I can’t think of anything any more ridiculous. I admit I did the fake it to make it thing in AA, but I wasn’t actually ‘believing’ anything. 

And don’t worry, you won’t be subjected to any more of my comments, not that you ever were. If you don’t like talking to me why not just not read what I post?????? I think it’s disgusting that people read your post and if they don’t like it, instead of not interacting, they slate you. I don’t why NAS allow this but I will be asking for major enquiries into this. I have been bullied before but never like this. 

Perhaps Tom, it is you that needs to spend some time speaking with  people who are homeless. You seem to forget, I have lived on the streets, several times, I have friends who still live on the streets and I still talk to them and others. I speak to them as I speak on here and I have never received anywhere near close to the level of hostility that I have had directed at me from people on this forum. And it is not just ‘one’ man who died last week from exposure to the cold, only you don’t hear about the majority them, we do. Those of us who live on the streets or are still in communication/friendships/relationships with people living on the streets, we know when someone dies but their deaths rarely make the news, so you might hear about the odd one but we mourn, love and miss the ones you don’t even know exist. 

The stress of keeping appointments at the job centre is high for me, that’s why I’m not going anymore. The stress of meeting the appointments is not helping me move forwards. It’s nothing to do with whether they will pay me or not it is simply that if I don’t keep that appointment in my mind at all times, I am likely to miss it. And I don’t believe in magic, in fact, I don’t ‘believe’ in anything, I either know it or I don’t, where does belief fit into that? And don’t tell me I don’t know anything. If you have a cup of coffee, you don’t have to ‘believe’ that you can pick it up, put it to your mouth, and then drink the coffee. You know you can. I either know something to that level of certainty or I don’t know so there are way more things I don’t know, way more, but there are some things I do know. If I don’t know it and I want to know it, I will do everything I can to know it, but if I don’t need to know it then I’m happy not knowing. 

Yes, it does matter to many people where they sit because they give greater value to the thing they’re sitting on than to the act of sitting. And to many people in this country, they value a settee, for example, that has cost more ‘money’ as having greater value than a floor, for example, that they don’t directly pay for. Not realising that it’s the floor that is supporting their precious settee. 

You’re right. That is my reasoning, if I’m sitting I’m sitting, if I’m walking I’m walking, no matter what I’ve got on my feet. And yes, if I’m eating I’m eating. There may be a difference in the food I’m eating but the difference is in the food, I’m still eating regardless of what I’m eating. People give value and meaning to ‘things’ and it is the value and meaning they give to the thing that makes it different, not the thing itself. You can have two comfortable chairs, for example. One could cost more money to produce and a person who values money, who has made money into their god, will say the most expensive chair is the best one because to them, given their value system, their god, the most expensive one is logically the best one for them. They value money therefore they value the things they can buy with their money. But to me and many other people who are homeless, a bed is a bed whether it costs £10,000 or it’s one we get to sleep in in a hostel. But a person who values money, they won’t see it that way. They will think the higher priced bed is better and better still if it is placed inside a building that costs more money. A lavish mansion for example instead of a building to house the homeless. It’s all about your value system and the majority of my friends on the streets and the other people who are homeless that I talk to, have values closer to mine (love, people, friendships, kindness) as supposed to yours, money and what it can buy. I do not and have never said that is wrong, it is just different to my value system therefore conversations with me require some patience and time to be mutually understood. I get that on the streets. Maybe because they’re not so obsessed worrying about making money or getting money from the government so they are able to take the time to really listen and hear what I’m saying and visa versa. I’d rather finish a conversation than rush off somewhere to give devotion to my god of money by going to do a job so I can get more of it or to the job centre to make sure they give me more of it. I’d rather just finish and enjoy my conversation because that is more benefit to me because I connect to people, not money, not their title, their job, their status in society, the size of their house or even if they have a house at all, I treat people all the same regardless of the ‘labels’ or their differences. 

My thoughts are precisely that, ‘my’ thoughts!!!! That’s why I started to make a disclaimer at the beginning of my posts because I got the impression that people didn’t realise that so I thought I needed to make it clear. I’ve never had to make that clear to people, people I usually speak to know my thoughts are my thoughts, I don’t have to tell them. They’re usually so far removed from theirs that they wouldn’t need telling, they have no confusion around that. Most people don’t even understand my thoughts so they know they’re mine and not theirs. Maybe it’s an autistic thing  to need to be reminded that when I speak I am speaking from my thoughts, but actually that’s not true, I don’t have to tell the people at my group, before I speak, that these are my thoughts!!! I don’t have to make that announcement, they just know. I have NEVER told anyone how to feel ~ that’s such a ridiculous thought to me that I barely know how to respond. How can one human tell another how to think??? 

Perhaps you should think a little more about the way you speak Tom? My friends run into the hundreds and I’m not just talking superficial friendships, I’m talking about real friendships. I have homeless people who would give me their last penny, in fact they have. Only you can say if your thinking is faulty. I love everybody. That is my thinking and as a result, I have hundreds of loving, kind, considerate friends who would do almost anything for me. They say I’m brutally honest, I speak my mind and they like that, because whether they like what I say, whether they understand it, whether it upsets them or makes them happy, it doesn’t matter, they trust me to tell them my honest thoughts etc, they know I won’t shy away from that through fear or offending or upsetting them. People come to me when they have a problem because they know they’ll leave without it. I speak now as I always have, the same as when I was a child and this is the first place I have ever been met with so much hostility. And nobody can say it’s aitistic people because the people at my group love me and I’ve only been going there since November. Some of them look out for me and their faces light up when I walk in. So I don’t think I need to change the way I speak, only the people I speak to. I have never in my life been met with so much hostility, even people on Facebook and YouTube will stick with the conversation long enough to understand where I’m coming from. Not to try to think like me, nobody wants that, but to understand my world, where I’m coming from, and sometimes that helps them, sometimes it doesn’t, it’s not supposed to ‘help’ them, it’s a conversation, it’s about understanding each other, it’s called diversity. Most people marvel at my mind without ever so much as ever wanting to even begin to understand it and that doesn’t create a barrier to communication, it actually helps. It’s exhausting for me sometimes to keep explaining myself and fortunately, I have many friends who haven’t got a clue what I’m talking about and they don’t need to, or want to, and we  have a great time. They just make it clear, when they want to talk about somebody, complain or just be negative in general, that I must not say a word until they’ve finished and even then I can’t comment and I don’t. They enjoy that and I would never want to stop a person’s enjoyment. They just tell me to shut it, and I do. There’s no hostility, we’re friend’s and even though their love is conditional, they love me just as much as I love them and it’s the love that bonds us, not where we live, what job we do, how big our eyes are, how much make up we wear, how much money we have, how much we are the same. All my friends are different. Yes, they have clusters, that’s natural, but we are all the same underneath. I have friends who are millionaires, one is in his 20’s and will soon be a billionaire, I have friends in jail, on the streets, heroin addicts, friends who are doctors, dentists, psychiatrists, etc, friends who work in government, finance, friends who don’t work at all. None of those differences matter, it’s the person underneath all that that counts (to me), and that’s who I talk to. No person is wrong. Every person is beautiful, precious and loved so much by me, I would never want to change any one of them, I love diversity, it makes the world so colourful and wonderful. I don’t have to change the way I talk, it’s acceptable to all my friends, and strangers, I just need to change who I speak to. I will speak to most people, my only exception is where there is hostility. I’m very sensitive and hostile environments have no benefit to me so you don’t have to worry or try and control the way I talk any more, I’m out of here. I’m going to answer any last posts I care to answer then I’ll be gone. I’ll check in now and again just incase (Orinoco I think it was) has any questions on the process I gave them but I won’t be reading posts or contributing. 

I'm sorry, BlueRay, but I can't help it on this occasion.  This is nonsense.  Not only that, but many desperate homeless people would find it extremely insensitive at best and grossly offensive at worst.

One person's nonsense is another person's lived experience. So just as you find BlueRay's description nonsense, I have experienced much like it and in no way as a desperate homeless person. I was homeless and it was a matter of facts, and I paid diligent attention to the necessity of them, eating from skips, waking up in frozen clothes and so on and so on.

It's also disgusting to lead possibly vulnerable people to believe that if they only 'believed' then they too could get away with flouting the laws and rules that they need to adhere to just to obtain the money they need to survive. It's difficult enough for people to navigate the benefits system and to survive on the money it pays them without misleading 'claims' like this.

I can't believe NAS allow this kind of crud to be posted.   

No.  What's nonsense is that you 'see no difference', and seem to be using it as some kind of generalisation to say 'there is no difference'.  I'm not talking about what I believe, but about the people who've spent all day - in the city where I work - sitting out on the pavement in the cold and rain, and who would probably give anything just to sit on an old wooden crate, let alone a settee. Try going up to one of them and saying 'I simply see no difference to sitting on a street and sitting on a settee in a house' and see what kind of a reception you get. One homeless man in that city died last week from exposure to the cold.  I wonder if he thought his place was no different to being indoors on a nice warm, comfy settee.  I'm also talking about the people who are literally terrified of being ten minutes late for an appointment at the Job Centre, in case they lose their benefits as a result.  People who don't just take such things in their stride, firm in their belief in magic, but who worry about being in debt, being homeless, being unable to feed their children, etc.

'And if I'm sitting down, I'm sitting down, no matter what I'm sitting on'.  Well, yes - ipso facto.  But there's a world of difference - maybe not to you, but to many others - to sitting on a cold, wet pavement and sitting on a settee in a warm house.  Your reasoning here is a bit like saying 'If I'm eating, I'm eating, no matter what I'm eating'... whether it's chocolate, or cake, or a piece of stale bread chucked out for the birds, or a bar of soap.

Your thoughts are precisely that: your thoughts.  Don't try using them as a way of saying 'Everyone should feel this way.'  And before you say 'I don't', perhaps you should think a little more about the way you speak.  'Poverty doesn't exist'.  'Ill-health doesn't exist'.  It's not presented as a subjective view, but as if it's some kind of universal truth.... and those of us who don't accept it as such are somehow merely susceptible to 'faulty thinking.'

I don't think I mind if someone thinks they have magical powers but I do get distressed if they try to manipulate or dismiss other people simply because they (the other people) don't have those 'magical powers' or 'superior knowledge' too. 

And, I think this is maybe how some of what you have written may have came across- that you perhaps seemed unfeeling or dismissive towards other peoples suffering, such as the homeless, for example.

However, I really don't want you to go (you said you were not going to post on here anymore in one of your other replies today, I think?)

I don't think you need to go, we all rub each other up the wrong way on here from time to time, sometimes we can all (each of us) be an ass, and other times we genuinely misinterpret, and sometimes we outright don't agree with one another on here, but these are no reason to go. 

I am as ordinary as they come, borderline pathologically boring and mundane. Its just who I am. 

And because of course you’re god so if you deem something to be inappropriate then the rest of us have to abide by your rule. 

Why should you get angry just because somebody thinks they have access to magic powers? Maybe they do? Maybe they don’t but why get angry at them? And what makes you think your ordinary? 

Actually, I think some people have a really sh*t time of it in this life, absolutely horrific and painfully hard; and I don’t think it is appropriate to suggest (directly or infer) that the cause of their hardship is simply their own fault because they are not abiding to some ‘universal laws.’

Which has slap banged directly into a real 'pet fume' I have of ‘spiritualism’ and ‘religion’ only in the respect that some people (please note my use of the word some…) claim (and use this claim to manipulate or dismiss other people,) that they personally have access to ‘superior’ or ‘magic’ powers that us ‘ordinary folk’ are not privy to.

I didn’t miss an appointment while my job coach was on a cruise. It was the appointment she made before she went on the cruise, for when she got back. 

I’m not lucky and I don’t walk an exalted path and I know all about sanctions - I’ve heard people on here talk about them and I’ve heard people at my autism group talk about them, including the lady who was without money for months. My job coach even put a thing on my universal credit page about sanctions which I didn’t read, it freaked me out, why did she put it on there???  I just asked my support worker if there was anything in the message or whatever it was, that I needed to read, other than if you don’t follow our rules etc they will stop giving me money, which to me, goes without saying anyway, and she said no, you don’t have to read it, don’t worry about it, so I didn’t.

I tend to avoid reading about things I don’t want, I find they can sometimes get in the way of getting what I do want. Sometimes it’s the slightest thing that can make the difference between getting what you want in life and getting what you don’t want and reading about stuff like sanctions, doesn’t fill me with joy so why would I read it? I’m choosy about what I read, what I fill my mind with.  It’s not applicable to me anyway, because as I have said before, I don’t work by following man made laws, they mean nothing to me, I work with universal/natural laws. Man made laws have never interested me, I don’t acknowledge them so therefore they don’t apply to me. I never have and never will, even as far back as being a little kid. 

I’m not lucky, I simply know how the law of cause and effect works. I know how precisely and how accurately this world works and I live in accordance with those laws. As I said before, I never learned them from Jesus or anybody else but Jesus shows the clearest description of how the laws of the universe work. I get whatever I want whenever I want, without fail, everytime because I know the laws. Like an electrician, he is less likely to get a shock or be electrocuted when fiddling with electricity, than I am because he knows and understands the laws of electricity, I don’t, so it’s unlikely I would get that law to work for me, but an electrician could do it easily. 

I got what I wanted, even before I consciously understood the laws in a way that I could explain them to others. To me, this is how the world works, I was born knowing it, I thought everyone was although admittedly, my brother and sister didn’t get it to work for them as well as I did and my sister still goes on about it today, about as a kid I somehow always managed to get whatever I wanted and her and my brother didn’t! 

There’s no magic, no miracles, no luck, just pure scientific un breakable precise and exact laws at play. If you live in accordance with them, you get whatever you want, everytime, nothing is too big and nothing too small. 

It is nonsense to you because you have a belief that sitting on a setee is somehow better than sitting on a street. I’m not sure I understand how? Maybe you could explain for me please. 

And what has the capacity of other people to feel offended got to do with what I say???? Please explain or maybe you’re some kind of spokesperson for homeless people or at least desperate homeless people and you’re relyaying my thoughts on life to them?!? I don’t understand but as far as I know, I’ve never offended a homeless person yet and I know a lot of them, some of my friends have been homeless most of their lives. Maybe the ones I know aren’t desperate enough and the more desperate a person gets the greater their capacity for feeling offended?!? I don’t know, I’m a little confused. 

I simply see no difference to sitting on a street to sitting on a setee in a house. Yes, the setee might be more comfortable, but comfort is only one aspect of my life and there are also many ways to get comfortable, even on the streets. And if I’m sitting down, I’m sitting down, no matter what I’m sitting on. 

I'm sorry, BlueRay, but I can't help it on this occasion.  This is nonsense.  Not only that, but many desperate homeless people would find it extremely insensitive at best and grossly offensive at worst.

I phoned a number. I told them. The woman on the end of the phone said instantly that I wasn’t sanctioned, I nearly said I never thought I was, but I didn’t. She was then very apologetic that she had to make me an appointment though.

That situation is so rare as to be tantamount to a miracle.  If you miss an appointment, you get sanctioned.  That's the way they work.  You don't turn up, so they stop your benefit.  It matters not if your job coach is on a cruise, or whatever else.  The system picks it up.  They hammer people on benefits in this way.  Which is why I say, and I firmly believe you, that you must walk an exalted path.  You are very, very lucky.

But don't take my word for it...

Sanctions

I was thinking exactly about the same things.

When I told my gp that I wanted a sick note, when I first went to ask for the referral. He was a bit gobsmacked. He said I can’t walk into his office and say all that to him, I could be anyone walking in off the street. I said I was  anyone walking in off the street and I had just said that and I asked him how he would assess my fitness for work in 10 minutes. He wrote the sick note, made the referral then kept me talking and saying prayers for me for another half an hour. We weren’t talking about the reason for the sick note or the regerral,  we were talking about all sorts of things. My job, his faith, his church, my church, my trip to Australia, all sorts. I thought you were only supposed to get 10 minutes and I hadn’t planned on staying that long. I wasn’t well. I needed rest. I was in burnout. I just wanted to get the note, the referral and get out of there. He did say an incredible prayer though but when he offered me his bible I took it and ran. My energy levels weren’t up for any more talk. 

Even with the benefits agency, I’m not really accustomed to having any problems with them in terms of getting what I need. I just seem to tell them and it just seems to happen. But maybe because I have no reliance or dependence on them. I see it more as a privilege. So if I ask for a benefit and they say no. I haven’t lost anything, I just didn’t get that privilege that day. Something else will support me. They don’t have to give me it. I found out today from my support worker that I can get a meal every week day, for a pound, literally round the corner from where I live, that I never knew about and 2 pound on a Sunday.  That will help me as I’m starting to eat more regularly now. It will help me get into a regular habit of eating every day. I didn’t need to know that information before so I didn’t know it, even though it’s been there for years apparently. But the first time that I saw my support worker, after I decided I was going to crack this eating lark and eat something every day, she showed up with that info. The place has been there for years she said. I didn’t tell her that I had just realised that for several reasons I simply cannot cook or provide food for myself every day. I had no idea how I would achieve to eat every day if I wasn’t going to provide food every day, especially when I don’t want anybody  in my house, I don’t want to go to somebody else’s, I would like to go out, but I didn’t want to go far. And then she came up with that! It’s nothing magical, it’s just that when we know what we want and we make a decision to get it, without any conditions placed on how we’ll get it or what it will look like, then we’ll get it. 

I didn’t even go into the job centre to tell them I wasn’t  coming in. This is what I mean. I woke up one morning and something told me I had missed a job centre appointment. I checked and I had. I thought good, because I don’t want to go in that place any more anyway. 

I had had a break of three weeks from the job centre because my work coach went on a three week cruise. They would never put me with another advisor, even though they had introduced me to one ‘just in case’ and they had helped me to get to know her. But that was ‘just in case’ my advisor dropped dead. I said I would only see another advisor if she dropped dead. So obviously they didn’t give me another advisor in her absence. 

That three week break was like bliss. It did me so much good. I only went to my autism group once in that time and I didn’t go to the ancestry group at all. It was wonderful. I got a really good amount of rest. 

So when I realised I had missed the appointment, I thought I’m just going to phone them up and tell them, the break has done me good and I’m not coming in anymore. 

I phoned a number. I told them. The woman on the end of the phone said instantly that I wasn’t sanctioned, I nearly said I never thought I was, but I didn’t. She was then very apologetic that she had to make me an appointment though. She told me not to worry, she would make the appointment with my work coach (they do it there and then) but that she would also send a message to my coach, to explain the situation, so I didn’t have to, and she would make the appointment for only 10 minutes and she would ask the work coach to make the arrangements for me to go in the group where I don’t have to go into the job centre. 

I never asked for any of that. I barely spoke. I said I’ll see if I can make it. 

I went for the appointment, my friend came with me. Before I said anything, the work coach said straight away, don’t worry, I understand the situation, I got the message, you don’t have to say anything. She even apologised (which I thought was weird) and began to stammer a little bit, unlike I’d seen her do before, and she said I’m sorry, I thought we’d already requested a work assessment, I don’t know what’s happened to it. 

I didn’t say anything, but to my knowledge and memory, we had never discussed a work assessment. So she said she’s on to it anyway. She said she will have to see me in a few weeks but we’ll make it as our catch up. She’ll tell me about the cruise and tell her what I’ve been up to. She said don’t worry. 

The job centre coach doesn’t talk to me about details of the benefit either, like once she said they couldn’t accept my sick note. My support worker (arranged by the work coach) liases with her on my behalf so she can then explain things like that  to me in a way that I can understand.  

All of that happened and I barely said anything. I have heard and met people in a similar situation as yours. One lady at my group was supported financially and in every other way for months while she was left with no money. I was astounded at the generosity of the people in the group in the way they supported her. She wouldn’t have survived all that time without their support. 

I don’t make ‘light’ of living off the streets and eating out of bins I simply see no difference to sitting on a street to sitting on a setee in a house. Yes, the setee might be more comfortable, but comfort is only one aspect of my life and there are also many ways to get comfortable, even on the streets. And if I’m sitting down, I’m sitting down, no matter what I’m sitting on. 

What I’m trying to say is, if I’m on the streets, I’m on the streets. If I’m living in a mansion, I’m living in a mansion. I might have a preference for one over the other if I was given a choice, but in this life, if you want something you are not always given a choice as to how it will come about. 

If I had been sanctioned, I would simply see that I’ve been sanctioned. If that lead to me sleeping on the streets, it would be that last night I slept in that house, tonight I’m sleeping on the street. If the only way I could have my shut down was by sleeping on the street,  I would still go to sleep with the same smile on my face and with the same amount of love and gratitude in my heart for the ability to have my shut down and to be able to go to sleep. If I’m asleep, I’m asleep. What difference does it make if I’m in a mansion or on a street? Im still the one sleeping whether I’m  in a bed or on a street. Sleep is sleep. What I sleep in doesn’t change who I am. It doesn’t change my happiness. It doesn’t change my gratitude or my adventure. I’m just sleeping here tonight. I don’t put conditions on how I receive what I want/need, only that I get it. 

I didn’t think I don’t want to be sanctioned. That thought never came into my head. I thought, I don’t want to go into that job centre. I’ve had enough. I’ve enjoyed not getting washed and dressed and needing to know what day it is so I don’t miss the appointment. My mind has got clearer and sharper. I feel more energised, even if it’s only in my mind right now, my body will follow if I continue this freedom from having to do those things such as get washed and dressed and be somewhere I don’t want to go, somewhere that stresses me out. And that’s what happened after I told them. I didn’t ask them not to sanction me. The thought never came into my head. 

They’re now arranging it so I don’t have to go in to the job centre. I’ve stopped making any kind of entries in that journal thing as well. I stopped that ages ago actually. Before she went away, she did ask me to make one entry, to avoid it going upstairs (whatever that meant) and she told me what to say.

I don’t think I walk an exalted path at all (whatever that is, but I’m sure I don’t). I didn’t know what would happen when I picked up that phone. Maybe they said you’re  sanctioned.  Well in that case, I would have probably said, ok, thank you and gone back to bed, as I did after she said I wasn’t sanctioned.

I would of carried on doing what I was doing. Talking on here probably and that’s it. I wouldn’t be angry or upset that they had sanctioned me. It’s not as if it was my money to start with. And I would have just carried on. I don’t know what would have happen after that but I did know, I was going to get my rest and that’s all that mattered. 

So I guess, in this situation,  the people who magically cooperated with what I wanted, was the woman who answered the phone, the job centre coach and my friend, who turned  up that day, not knowing about any of this,  and encouraged me to go because otherwise, I don’t think I would have gone. I didn’t want to talk to them, that was the whole point, I was improving more because I wasn’t going in there. . She said I’ll go with you and you don’t have to speak, I’ll speak for you. But it turned out that none of us had to speak, it seems the woman who answered the phone said something, I’ve no idea what, but whatever she said she made it clear I didn’t want to speak. I think that was the day my friend took me out to lunch as well. 

I didn’t even go into the job centre to tell them I wasn’t  coming in. This is what I mean. I woke up one morning and something told me I had missed a job centre appointment. I checked and I had. I thought good, because I don’t want to go in that place any more anyway. 

I had had a break of three weeks from the job centre because my work coach went on a three week cruise. They would never put me with another advisor, even though they had introduced me to one ‘just in case’ and they had helped me to get to know her. But that was ‘just in case’ my advisor dropped dead. I said I would only see another advisor if she dropped dead. So obviously they didn’t give me another advisor in her absence. 

That three week break was like bliss. It did me so much good. I only went to my autism group once in that time and I didn’t go to the ancestry group at all. It was wonderful. I got a really good amount of rest. 

So when I realised I had missed the appointment, I thought I’m just going to phone them up and tell them, the break has done me good and I’m not coming in anymore. 

I phoned a number. I told them. The woman on the end of the phone said instantly that I wasn’t sanctioned, I nearly said I never thought I was, but I didn’t. She was then very apologetic that she had to make me an appointment though. She told me not to worry, she would make the appointment with my work coach (they do it there and then) but that she would also send a message to my coach, to explain the situation, so I didn’t have to, and she would make the appointment for only 10 minutes and she would ask the work coach to make the arrangements for me to go in the group where I don’t have to go into the job centre. 

I never asked for any of that. I barely spoke. I said I’ll see if I can make it. 

I went for the appointment, my friend came with me. Before I said anything, the work coach said straight away, don’t worry, I understand the situation, I got the message, you don’t have to say anything. She even apologised (which I thought was weird) and began to stammer a little bit, unlike I’d seen her do before, and she said I’m sorry, I thought we’d already requested a work assessment, I don’t know what’s happened to it. 

I didn’t say anything, but to my knowledge and memory, we had never discussed a work assessment. So she said she’s on to it anyway. She said she will have to see me in a few weeks but we’ll make it as our catch up. She’ll tell me about the cruise and tell her what I’ve been up to. She said don’t worry. 

The job centre coach doesn’t talk to me about details of the benefit either, like once she said they couldn’t accept my sick note. My support worker (arranged by the work coach) liases with her on my behalf so she can then explain things like that  to me in a way that I can understand.  

All of that happened and I barely said anything. I have heard and met people in a similar situation as yours. One lady at my group was supported financially and in every other way for months while she was left with no money. I was astounded at the generosity of the people in the group in the way they supported her. She wouldn’t have survived all that time without their support. 

I don’t make ‘light’ of living off the streets and eating out of bins I simply see no difference to sitting on a street to sitting on a setee in a house. Yes, the setee might be more comfortable, but comfort is only one aspect of my life and there are also many ways to get comfortable, even on the streets. And if I’m sitting down, I’m sitting down, no matter what I’m sitting on. 

What I’m trying to say is, if I’m on the streets, I’m on the streets. If I’m living in a mansion, I’m living in a mansion. I might have a preference for one over the other if I was given a choice, but in this life, if you want something you are not always given a choice as to how it will come about. 

If I had been sanctioned, I would simply see that I’ve been sanctioned. If that lead to me sleeping on the streets, it would be that last night I slept in that house, tonight I’m sleeping on the street. If the only way I could have my shut down was by sleeping on the street,  I would still go to sleep with the same smile on my face and with the same amount of love and gratitude in my heart for the ability to have my shut down and to be able to go to sleep. If I’m asleep, I’m asleep. What difference does it make if I’m in a mansion or on a street? Im still the one sleeping whether I’m  in a bed or on a street. Sleep is sleep. What I sleep in doesn’t change who I am. It doesn’t change my happiness. It doesn’t change my gratitude or my adventure. I’m just sleeping here tonight. I don’t put conditions on how I receive what I want/need, only that I get it. 

I didn’t think I don’t want to be sanctioned. That thought never came into my head. I thought, I don’t want to go into that job centre. I’ve had enough. I’ve enjoyed not getting washed and dressed and needing to know what day it is so I don’t miss the appointment. My mind has got clearer and sharper. I feel more energised, even if it’s only in my mind right now, my body will follow if I continue this freedom from having to do those things such as get washed and dressed and be somewhere I don’t want to go, somewhere that stresses me out. And that’s what happened after I told them. I didn’t ask them not to sanction me. The thought never came into my head. 

They’re now arranging it so I don’t have to go in to the job centre. I’ve stopped making any kind of entries in that journal thing as well. I stopped that ages ago actually. Before she went away, she did ask me to make one entry, to avoid it going upstairs (whatever that meant) and she told me what to say.

I don’t think I walk an exalted path at all (whatever that is, but I’m sure I don’t). I didn’t know what would happen when I picked up that phone. Maybe they said you’re  sanctioned.  Well in that case, I would have probably said, ok, thank you and gone back to bed, as I did after she said I wasn’t sanctioned.

I would of carried on doing what I was doing. Talking on here probably and that’s it. I wouldn’t be angry or upset that they had sanctioned me. It’s not as if it was my money to start with. And I would have just carried on. I don’t know what would have happen after that but I did know, I was going to get my rest and that’s all that mattered. 

So I guess, in this situation,  the people who magically cooperated with what I wanted, was the woman who answered the phone, the job centre coach and my friend, who turned  up that day, not knowing about any of this,  and encouraged me to go because otherwise, I don’t think I would have gone. I didn’t want to talk to them, that was the whole point, I was improving more because I wasn’t going in there. . She said I’ll go with you and you don’t have to speak, I’ll speak for you. But it turned out that none of us had to speak, it seems the woman who answered the phone said something, I’ve no idea what, but whatever she said she made it clear I didn’t want to speak. I think that was the day my friend took me out to lunch as well. 

I think we have the same (but different) struggles in our everyday conversations with people Deepthought but I do also have a love of unusual (meaning not used every day) words, I just don’t seem to be able to retain/remember them for very long. 

Having difficulties retaining/remembering words, might involve not having a viable short-term memory ~ but rather more just the long-term one. In a sense it is like as if the memory is a town, but there is only one bank and no cash machines, or there is only one supermarket and no little pop-to shops.

With Autism, having a short term memory system introduced, can be equivalent to having not only a spanner in the works, but a full set of spanners, numerous crow-bars and whatever else might mangle a machine up. Having one or more mental breakdowns can also leave the short term memory as being a mangle up also ~ leaving only the operation of the long term memory system, and not alot of experience on how to let it operate without the short term memory.

This links to having difficulties in communicating, as  may involve your linguistic networkings (your inner dictionary systems) not yet being fully primed, which means that the words are all in there pre-programmed, but not in all cases actively readied ~ more on standby mode until activated. I found it was like trying to find the corner and edge pieces in a jigsaw puzzle, only in words, and once so the linguistic networking activated and became an assistant, rather than something requiring persistent effort to use in order to recall or get words.

Old English in the sense of the King James Bible and the works of Shakespeare primed my linguistic networkings for instance when I was about eight ~ only modern English took hard work for decades with loads of stress and confusion for me and others.

Then about ten years ago somebody mentioned 'power-words' and the Esperanto language, which as far as the translation into English words goes ~ it primed my modern English networkings a total treat. I just had to read each word (there is about  400 of them) out loud several times over for a few months. I can now speak simply or in complex terms, only the simple speak stuff is a weird experience for me, not unlike using the other hand to write when not being ambidextrous.

Even though writing in simple terms is difficult for me ~ oh my whole life writing words is a complete labour of love, although the labour pains and strains of having a concisely written mind-baby are really hard work, sort of thing.

But yeah, like you, I’ve been trying to use language that other people can more easily understand although today I feel so frustrated and I have no idea why and my favourite go to when that happens is to shut the (physical) world out  

Maybe a frustration from however long ago being processed now perhaps? 

With the shutting the world out thing I have four days where I keep worldly affairs off the list of things to do mostly, and three days on.

Arrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhh ~ that’s how I’m feeling right now ~ I need to be in nature! There, I think I just answered my own question ~ go for a walk in the woods! 

I find being other than in nature impossible being that it is everywhere, but the countryside or else for me a bit of time in the local park is refreshing, or at least calming methinks actually more.

It’s been great talking to you Deepthought.

It has has been been a very intriguing exchange.

Never stop being you and whenever you think you’re alone in the world, in not having someone else to talk to (in the way you like to talk), remember there is me in the world as well, having the same struggle  ~ I bet we could talk for hours, face to face  

I always find it weird when people tell me to keep being me, as for years so many people kept asking me why I could not be more like other people, and for the whole time I have only ever been able to be me. 

Alone in this world has never been a problem for me, what with everything else here beyond the third plain, and I have a cluster of friends who know likewise as we do too. So if you do not mind a conversation that is not an alternative to desperation, but just the pleasure of so doing, a problem most certainly not methinks :-)

And as for betting we could talk for hours, I do not bet and most certainly not on certainties ;-)

Have a good one and play safely ~ and of course thank you too; a pleasure I am sure :-)

I think we have the same (but different) struggles in our everyday conversations with people Deepthought but I do also have a love of unusual (meaning not used every day) words, I just don’t seem to be able to retain/remember them for very long. 

But yeah, like you, I’ve been trying to use language that other people can more easily understand although today I feel so frustrated and I have no idea why and my favourite go to when that happens is to shut the (physical) world out  

Arrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhh ~ that’s how I’m feeling right now ~ I need to be in nature! There, I think I just answered my own question ~ go for a walk in the woods! 

It’s been great talking to you Deepthought. Never stop being you and whenever you think you’re alone in the world, in not having someone else to talk to (in the way you like to talk), remember there is me in the world as well, having the same struggle  ~ I bet we could talk for hours, face to face  

Have a great weekend and a wonderful week. Thank you. 

Sorry, no. It’s all the big words and complicated sentences and the way the words are ordered. I’m not an acedemic (I think that’s the right word ). I do read books but they’re mostly, if not all, metaphysical books, which I can understand as they think the way I do but outside of that I do struggle if I don’t have someone to explain things to me more simply (I usually need this help face to face as it can take a while lol). 

Yes 'academic' is pretty close, being that some refer to me as being an intellectual. I am though working out how to use simple terms more, which is so not easy for me, but it is something I really have been working on and need to get better at. Thank you for your help in this respect, as what we writing about is what in words I need to simplify.

I think I understand from the description what a consolidation is, could it be this ~ a bunch of people get together to agree on a single purpose, for example, we will clean up the litter on the streets in our home town? ~ would that be a consolidation?

That describes a 'consolidation', yes ~ most certainly.

I’m not sure what you mean by there being no free will or how that’s connected to will power. I’m not sure how will power comes into it. Maybe I used the wrong word.

Will-power is 'control exerted to do something or restrain impulses'. So basically it involves getting through or around mental or also physical obstacles, or reigning in compulsions or drives to do things not desired. Being free whilst using will power cannot be the case.

Maybe I should have said, we were given the power to chose ~ which would therefore include the choice of whether to live by the (spiritual/natural) laws or not. 

Stating that we were given the power to choose ~ certainly works.

The thing about choosing whether or not to live by spiritual/natural laws, is as tricky as stating we have a choice as whether we just speak, read or write what we decide the meanings to be, or else use dictionary definitions of what is meant when each word is used.

I still have no idea what you mean by the whole Ceaser thing. It would be easier if you explained what you mean in your own words using examples from every day life.

Well using biblical quotes and the words that I do involve my everyday life, although as I mentioned above, I am making an effort to use simpler words for those more used to them. Basically I am getting the hang of using your type of words.

I get really confused when big words are used, they get me all confused (it doesn’t take much lol). 

I get the opposite problem, as short words do not carry or relate as much information or pleasure in the speaking or thinking of them for me. I mean I enjoy saying, thinking and writing the word 'perambulator' for instance ~ rather than its shortened word version as 'pram'. 

Are you saying the Ceasar quote (I’m not sure where it comes from or how it relates to our conversations) but are you saying that it says that all the physical things we have we should give to Ceasar (whoever he was?)?

The "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" comes from the 22nd chapter and the 21st verse of the book of Matthew in the Bible. It relates to our conversation about recognising the laws of Humanity and/or those of God, and the difference between a commandment made by Caesar, and a consolidation made with God. The basic 'render to' message was give if need be everything you own in order to stay alive, and prosper more by the way of serving God.

So while ever Ceasar is alive he owns all physical things? But Ceasar isn’t alive anymore or does Ceasar mean something else? Actually, I don’t even know who he was, I’m just kind of guessing that he was a king of a country at some point? 

A Caesar was a Roman Emperor, and the Roman Empire included England, Europe, the Middle East and the shore-lands of North Africa from Spain. The Roman Empire was a military dictatorship, and whatever a Caesar wanted ~ it would be taken if it was not given.

At the time of Jesus, the Roman Emperor from 14AD to 37AD ~ was Tiberius Claudius Nero.

Ok, I see what’s happening now. We effectively live in two different worlds and we are therefore talking two different languages. 

Not quite but almost. We effectively live on the same world in two different bodies, and are both writing in English. You write abstractly using displaced concrete terms more generally, and I more generally use concretely applied terms.

Displaced concrete terms above involve describing 'talking' when we are 'writing', and living in different 'worlds' rather than in different 'bodies'.

Writing abstractly involves imagining and as above describing separate worlds and different languages ~ in your mind, rather than concretely describing being in different locations on this same planet using this same language.

If we were though talking with one another ~ we would be speaking with different 'dialects' or 'accents' (tomayto~tomahto or potayto~patahto sort of thing). Also, we are living on so very many different versions of this one same world, and sensing several more than the vast majority do - what with the sparticles, orbs, hazes and light-frequency wavelengths and all that. 

I understand what you’re saying regarding child/parent ego etc. We have a similar understanding in metaphysics but it is a deeper understanding to what you describe. 

The Parent, Adult and Child (PAC) ego-state model is the basic introduction model for TA. In metaphysical terms we also have the model of consciousness, experience and awareness, involving the Receptive, Protective and Projective aspects of our experiential embodiments, as sensibilities, personalities or selves.

Depending on who I work with, I might use a more psychological approach, as you described, to help the client understand their situation, in the beginning at least. But always metaphysical principles, which work along natural laws, will underly everything I do with them.

Metaphysicists work with the principles of nature, as which gave rise to the laws of the land, as are recorded for the people of that land, when ignorance prevails on certain matters.

For example, I work with the law of cause and effect which might at first (the cause) appear in the physical realm but I will get to the real cause. 

So with the law of cause and effect stating that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, you use that statement as a theme for your work.

For example, if Jo said something really unkind and hurtful to John which resulted in John being upset.

So ~ Jo's unkind and hurtful wording 'caused' the effect of John being upset.

John might think that Jo is the cause of his upset.

Well in the given instance there is 'a' direct link between what Jo said and what John felt, so not an unreasonable assumption on John's part in the given circumstance. 

But that’s not true. Jo has no power to cause upset in John.

Jo did though have the power to cause John to be upset ~ given that 'Jo's unkind and hurtful wording 'caused' the 'effect' of John being upset.'

The upset is in John and was triggered by what Jo said.

Given that in the given context as described:

Power: 'the ability or capacity to do something or act in a particular way'

Upset: 'make (someone) unhappy, disappointed, or worried'

'Caused: make (something, especially something bad) happen'

Triggered: 'caused by particular action, process, or situation.'

If then as you describe Jo has no power to upset John ~ on account that what Jo said was a trigger, you have stated a contradiction in terms; as something 'triggered' is something 'caused' ~ as an 'effect' ~ rather than Jo not having the power to do so, as you stated.

I think that what you actually mean, is that possibly Jo need not have power over John.  

If this root cause is not addressed and dissolved, John will continue to meet people in his life who upset him.

When it comes to addressing and 'dissolving' the root cause or primary issue, dissolving it is not really a befitting term. The sensitivity or issue involves aspects of John's of psychological and physiological anatomy, i.e. ego-states or experiential fragments, which need 'resolving', in the sense of discovering or more rediscovering, the original need or purpose.

It is perhaps better to state that:

If this root cause is not addressed and resolved ~ John may continue to meet people in his life who upset him.

I changed the 'will' to 'may' in that although there is likelihood of John's behavioural pattern repeating with others ~ as you state; there are also 'pattern burn-outs' or 'habituated extinctions', as the capacity to keep going with the behavioural pattern  gets worn or burnt out. Particular people as such can instead meet others who make them feel good in and about themselves.

Alternatively ~ the pattern does not get burnt out, but healed out by meeting people who have the opposite inclination to Jo saying unkind and hurtful things, such as Frank who says helpful and encouraging things.

Even if he were to deal with the perceived cause of the upset, i.e. he made it up with Jo etc, he understood why Jo said what he said etc and he forgives him. A similar situation would reoccur in his life because he hasn’t dealt with the root cause. 

Well the root cause could involve perhaps Negative Adaption Child ego-states, for John's adaptation at school could of been for instance to put up with and shut up about being insulted or bullied, rather than learning how to deal with it appropriately. The only release for John maybe was just to get upset about it.

Basically a Child ego-state adaptation is 'negative' in that it does 'not' fulfil the developmental need, but opposes it.

Another consideration, regarding John making up with Jo, could involve Negative Nurturing Parent ego-states, where John is supportive to Jo's plight, i.e. bad week at work, money worries or whatever else ~ and John forgives all, but the long term problem does not as such get resolved. 

If man made laws are made to protect people, why aren’t they working?

With laws being systems of written rules and regulations, it is not a question of why laws aren't protecting people, but why they not being respected and carried out by people. Lack of wisdom and or experience may be the simplest answer perhaps?

And if man knew himself, loved himself and loved his neighbour as himself, who would he need to be protected from? 

Laws as codes of conduct are not just about protection, they are more instructions on how things are done for the greater good, in which ever circumstances, whether they be foreseen, or unforeseen.

Sorry, no. It’s all the big words and complicated sentences and the way the words are ordered. I’m not an acedemic (I think that’s the right word ). I do read books but they’re mostly, if not all, metaphysical books, which I can understand as they think the way I do but outside of that I do struggle if I don’t have someone to explain things to me more simply (I usually need this help face to face as it can take a while lol). 

I think I understand from the description what a consolidation is, could it be this ~ a bunch of people get together to agree on a single purpose, for example, we will clean up the litter on the streets in our home town? ~ would that be a consolidation?

I’m not sure what you mean by there being no free will or how that’s connected to will power. I’m not sure how will power comes into it. Maybe I used the wrong word. Maybe I should have said, we were given the power to chose ~ which would therefore include the choice of whether to live by the (spiritual/natural) laws or not. 

I still have no idea what you mean by the whole Ceaser thing. It would be easier if you explained what you mean in your own words using examples from every day life. I get really confused when big words are used, they get me all confused (it doesn’t take much lol). 

Are you saying the Ceasar quote (I’m not sure where it comes from or how it relates to our conversations) but are you saying that it says that all the physical things we have we should give to Ceasar (whoever he was?)? So while ever Ceasar is alive he owns all physical things? But Ceasar isn’t alive anymore or does Ceasar mean something else? Actually, I don’t even know who he was, I’m just kind of guessing that he was a king of a country at some point? 

Ok, so this first part, I can’t understand. I don’t know what you mean by ‘principles as consolidations’ ~ I don’t know what a consolidation is and why can’t a principle just be a principal? 

Principle:

1.) a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behaviour, or for a chain of reasoning.

2.) a general scientific theorem or law that has numerous special applications across a wide field.

and,

Consolidation:

1.) the action or process of making something stronger or more solid."the permanent consolidation of peace"

2.) the action or process of combining a number of things into a single more effective or coherent whole.

So basically a principle in any context is something that comes first, before other things result ~ cause and effect. And a consolidation in a social or divine context is an agreement between people or God to achieve or commit to something. So the principle consolidation to love the spirit of you came first, and the secondary consolidation to love the neighbours of you as such came second ~ as 'a single more effective or coherent whole.'

I don’t understand the part about Jesus asking people to form agreements with god in principle? I don’t understand that. He said we are god. 

33. "We are not stoning you for any of these [miracles]" replied the [Pharisees], "But for blasphemy, because you a mere man, claim to be God." 34. Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, "I have said you are gods."

From John 10;34 of the 1984 NIV Bible.

He didn’t say aspire to love the spirit in you he said this is the law, know thyself, love thyself and love all others as yourself and you will live in bliss, happiness and freedom and you will have all that you want, and more, in this life.

In Greek, the word àγαπησεις is an active future verb meaning by action 'breathing to love' ~ hence, "Aspire firstly to love the god of you contentedly in the heart of you, contentedly in the soul of you and contentedly in the mind of you." as being an unabridged or not shortened version from the Greek text ~ word for word.

As far though as this thing with the law goes, from page 421 of the 1993 version of THE OXFORD COMPANION TO THE BIBLE:

Israelite Law

Although laws and the concept of law played an overwhelmingly important role in the Hebrew Bible and in the life of ancient Israel, the Hebrew Bible has no term exactly equivalent to the English word "law". The Hebrew word most often translated as "law", tora (*Torah), actually means teaching or instruction. As such it expresses the morally and socially didactic nature of God's demands on the Israelite people. The misleading translation of tora as law entered Western thought through the Greek translation (*Septuagint) of the term as nomos, as in the name of the book of *Deuteronomy ("the second law").

The first instruction or teaching (rather than law then) was Genesis (the creation account) Exodus (the journey from Egypt account), Leviticus (the ritual practices account), Numbers (the population account) and Deuteronomy (the legal practices account).

All this business with laws and commandments is due to the Romanisation of Christianity ~ by way of the Masoretic teachings of the Pharisees to become a dictatorship. Remember that a commandment by a king had to be followed ~ or else! Whereas Jesus actually spoke of a loving God offering choice, giving people the option to stay on the cycle of physical rebirth ~ or be reborn into heaven before dying, and not having to inherit the earth again and again etcetera.

When it comes though to getting what we want and more again and again etcetera, we only get what we 'need', and alot of people do not understand that the 'ask and you shall receive' instruction is also a warning. Every feeling, thought and action is a request that gets answered in this life or the next etc. Hence the many instructions about seeking God within and not things in the outside world. Thus you only get what you want if you actually happen to need it.  

We were given free will to chose to live by the law or not. He was simply telling people what the law was and how to achieve it. 

Hence the instruction, the teaching and the choice of making one or more of the consolidations with God, involving love and wisdom, rather than to conform to the fear and loathing of more or the lust and longing for more involving dictatorships.

One technicality though, there is no such thing as 'free will', as 'will-power' is an attitude which means an enforced state of mind, but one can choose freely instead by way of natural aptitude or ability.

Render to Ceasar would mean to render nothing to him because what does he have? Nothing. 

Being that paying the tax was the problem, rendering nothing could not be the solution. The resolution was that the things of the flesh go as to the flesh, whilst the things of the spirit go as to the spirit ~ thus the balance between heaven and earth and life and death are maintained.

So all that part was largely confusing to me. 

Any less confused now?

Deepthought

Ok, I see what’s happening now. We effectively live in two different worlds and we are therefore talking two different languages. 

I understand what you’re saying regarding child/parent ego etc. We have a similar understanding in metaphysics but it is a deeper understanding to what you describe. 

Depending on who I work with, I might use a more psychological approach, as you described, to help the client understand their situation, in the beginning at least. But always metaphysical principles, which work along natural laws, will underly everything I do with them.

For example, I work with the law of cause and effect which might at first (the cause) appear in the physical realm but I will get to the real cause. 

For example, if Jo said something really unkind and hurtful to John which resulted in John being upset. John might think that Jo is the cause of his upset. But that’s not true. Jo has no power to cause upset in John.

The upset is in John and was triggered by what Jo said. If this root cause is not addressed and dissolved, John will continue to meet people in his life who upset him.

Even if he were to deal with the perceived cause of the upset, i.e. he made it up with Jo etc, he understood why Jo said what he said etc and he forgives him. A similar situation would reoccur in his life because he hasn’t dealt with the root cause. 

If man made laws are made to protect people, why aren’t they working? And if man knew himself, loved himself and loved his neighbour as himself, who would he need to be protected from? 

Oh absolutely, I love human laws. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not belittling them in anyway. They are a necessity because currently, most people don’t think for themselves and until they do, we absolutely need human laws.

I am not getting you wrong ~ as I know where you are coming from, it is just that your writing style involves absolutes in the positive and negative senses. As for instance you have in different post shifted from Child ego states of mind to Parental ego states ~ where you have been stating like many do quite opposite and thus contradictory points of view at different stages.

My favourite example of me being hypocritical was as a child when I shouted at the very top of my voice that I was not shouting. I did so 'so' loudly enough I actually managed to hear myself ~ which fascinated me intensely. This was one of the many reasons that led to me get into Transactional Analysis (or TA) particularly, and psychology in general.

Now the basic model for TA is called the PAC model, as follows:

P = Parent ego-states ~ behaviours, thoughts and feelings copied from parents or parent figures

A = Adult ego-states ~ behaviours, thoughts and feelings that are direct responses for the here-and-now

C = Child ego-states ~ behaviours, thoughts and feelings that are replayed from childhood

Just as very basic guide, in that Adult ego-states deal with the here now ~ Child ego-states tend to include 'always' statements, and Parent ego-states tend to include 'never' statements, although of course there are cross overs.

Autistic Black and White Thinking involves Child ego-states getting contradicted by Parent ego-states, and vice-versa, rather than being mediated and reasonably integrated by the Adult ego-states ~ as need to be developed to become more functionally viable.

Simply learning to recognise the difference between being in Child or Parent states of mind ~ goes a long way to developing the Adult ego states.

Like you, they have been helpful to me in so many ways and were key to me getting my clients what they needed when working as a social worker. So I’m not putting them down in anyway and it’s fun to watch as they get more severe as people are beginning to learn how to think for themselves.

So when you state that, "I am not putting [laws] down in any way" [P] you contradict yourself with, "its fun to watch as they get more severe" [C] which puts laws down as being severe. Then comes as follows:

But it doesn’t matter how severe they get, they will eventually dissolve to the degree that people start to think for themselves and no longer allow themselves to be controlled by them, they will lose their purpose.

So in the here and now sense you write about not putting laws down in any way, then describe their severity and your hope they will become useless. Laws are not just about controlling people, for they also guide us as to how things are done for the greater good.

I have no idea what you mean by mistaking laws for principles. 

Well the manifest forces or events of nature come before scientists recognise and record them as laws, with written laws then being secondary to the principle forces or events of nature.

Are you saying all laws are made by man?

Yes, very much indeed, I am stating that all laws are man made or recorded and verified as being constant states of affairs in nature, or requisite states of affairs in society.

If so, we have a different understanding of what a law is.

You are mistaking the man made descriptive laws of nature for the actual forces or events of nature.

I know there are man made laws, I don’t pay them much attention, but I know they’re there and I work with them in my work when I work for the government. But they aren’t the only laws and they’re certainly not the laws that I live by. 

We live by the forces of nature and the laws of humanity describing them.

I live by the laws of know thyself, love thy neighbour, unity, love, the law of cause and effect, those kinds of laws, none of which were made by man. Man didn’t make the law of electricity but he discovered it and made use of it but he didn’t make it. I now drive within speed limits and follows the laws of the road to a greater degree, things like that. I recognise them but they don’t rule my life. 

Human laws are not meant to rule your life, that is your responsibility.

I’ll put your name at the beginning so you are less likely to miss the comments because this is really interesting. I don’t understand what you’re saying, but I’m going to do my best. And maybe after a bit of toing and froing I might gain more understanding.

You have already the understanding ~ it's just the comprehension that we all need and eventually get one way or another with or without teacher as student and student as teacher, and all that sort of thing involving the meaning of absolute being as infinitely becoming ~ God through Goddess or energy through matter.

I don’t recognise societal laws, they have no interest to me. So when I talk about laws, I’m talking universal laws, but the description remains accurate. 

Laws as previously discussed are recorded descriptions of particular processes that occur in material nature, for the sake of specialised fields of reference or information. 

Universal law by definition includes every law of societal law also, and societal law is used for social reference when ignorance prevails. 

Laws are not required whilst universal wisdom is as love embodied or as energy equally manifest. Look and listen for instance to all that surrounds you and know that laws are not involved but the principles of fluid dynamics and fixed mechanics of nature as energised forces are.  

Law is a system of rules that are created and enforced, through social or governmental institutions, to regulate behaviour. Law is a system that regulates and ensures that individuals or a community adhere to the will of the state. 

Already discussed:

The [natural] laws, is a system of unbreakabke rules that were created ... to regulate behaviour.

The diamagnetic and electromagnetic forces of nature organise the geometric progressions of energy via crystal-mineral formations of matter, that regulate fluid and fixed facilitations such as clouds and snow, cerebrospinal fluid and bones, lava and rock and every thing else above and below you.

These laws aren’t enforced, people have free will to follow the laws or not.

These forces are emergent energy as being light, and convergent matter as being dark, and people can choose between the manifestation of light inside of them, and the dark outside of them.

They are not judged for this in anyway.

Judgement only applies to intentions to do things or not, during the course of doing things and after having done things.

The laws are a system that regulates and ensures that individuals or a community adhere to the will of the state ~ the state being the creater of the laws, for ease of conversation let’s call that god ~ unless you have any negative connotations attached to that word?

The forces of light and dark govern and balance individual and collective harmonisation such as from atoms to galaxies ~ through the absolute being as infinitely becomes. For the ease of conversation let's not call it "god" because I might be referring to the spirit of me, or the spirit of you or any other spirit in anything else that is not wholly the absolute being of infinite becoming. But "God" with an upper case 'G' will do when referring to the Allparent or All-being of All-becoming ~ although some state "GOD" is the better option, being that there is the heavenly assembly of Gods, and the earthly assemblies of gods. Some use the term "angel" regarding human beings rather than god to save spoken confusions.

So for example, love thy neighbour as yourself. That is a law. If you follow this law you will experience bliss, freedom and happiness ~ provided you ‘know thyself’. If you don’t, you will experience any and all of frustration, jealousy, envy, hatred etc etc. 

Bliss and agony, freedom and restriction and happiness and sadness are all polar opposites resulting in the other, whilst developing a relationship with the love of the spirit in heart, soul and mind ~ balances out and compensates for the differences between those of ourselves, and thereby others as well in terms of harmonic resonance. 

Frustration ~ feeling distressed about an inability to change or achieve something ~ is a regulum of human physiological experience, but it need not remain as a prolonged psychological issue. Tensions in the body for instance frustrate free movement, such as when we are physically tired, sick or injured, hence the need to care for ourselves, and better moderate our actions.    

Envy ~ feeling deprived of what someone else enjoys having, and jealousy ~ feeling hostile toward a rival or someone enjoying an advantage ~ these are socially fostered and personally adopted behaviourisms from childhood, involving genetic tendencies also, that may be better moderated, diminished or even wholly relinquished.

Hatred is another part of the human experiential regulum ~ such as hating the smell or taste of particular type of food, drink or medicie, and most people think they hate particular people or groups of people or whatever else, but this is actually as such loathing, which may be better managed or relinquished also.

Nobody will ‘punish’ you if you don’t live by this law, you won’t be judged, but you will not experience the constant bliss, freedom and happiness it gives you in return. 

Already and just covered.

If you don’t follow it, you will simply reap what you sow. You will plant the seed (the cause, the harmful thoughts) and you will experience the effects of those thoughts. 

Well leading a life embodying at one extent love as wisdom, or following a life embodying lusts (desires) as ignorance at the other extent ~ involves sowing what one will reap as such one way or another either way, and this is so regardless of what anyone does in the neutral, positive or negative sense.

It’s a simple law but most people chose to ignore it and as such, they do not experience the freedom. 

Everyone experiences freedom, whether they are aware of it or they want it or not, only most people are fearful of it and individuality also, as they need instead the stimulation of or the distraction from themselves by way of regular interactions with others collectively. Most people cannot function independently as they are followers, supporters or leaders of groups genetically to the core, and only a few can go and do the way of the wilderness.

Humans create their own laws. They are not based on love and freedom, they are based on things like control, greed, power etc and as such, I do not recognise them. 

The law as system of rules and regulations is not based on things like control, greed and power, the tidiest description aside from the "bind" ( as I'd use unite) that I most identify with so far is:

LAW. Laws are rules that bind all people living in a community. Laws protect our general safety, and ensure our rights as >subjects or< citizens against abuses by other people, by organizations, and by the government itself. We have laws to help provide for our general safety.

judiciallearningcenter.org/law-and-the-rule-of-law/

So it is more that controlling, greedy and power hunger people use the law as they do more negatively, and that people who have a healthy sense of community and society use the law as they do more positively. The law is neutral.

I think rather than law, you are considering more the subject matter of morals and ethics ~  with morals being what individual's believe to be right and wrong, and ethics being societal codes of conduct in social and professional environments. 

In respect of Law, do other than to as the expression goes "Throw the baby out with the bathwater" perhaps?

I live by the law of love and as it continues to be proven in my life, this law is far greater than any human man made law so I have no reason to recognise or abide by man made laws.

I think more that you live by the spirit or power of love, which is harmonic rather than as you describe being selective or exclusive, for as such you are not describing love, but more passions and desires to rebel against some aspects of social conformity and societal values.

Thus you have become in writing a law unto yourself, rejecting then also the divinely inspired fundamental laws made by Humans as records for reference, guidance and as above described and quoted regarding safety from harm, and recourse when harm is being or has been done.

Remember that many types of people read these threads and posts, and through which some find reason to live by what is written. Remember also that T1's Follow, T2s Support and T3s Lead more or less by habit what most triggers or stimulates them to do so.

The main problem is setting standards and reasons for rebellion against the law firstly devalues it, and secondly gives further stimulus for others to reject and ignore what it stands for also.

Consider for example from the NIV1984 Bible version of the first book of Peter chapter 2, verses 13 through to 16 as follows:

13.) Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14.) or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.

15.) For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.

Thank you and yes, I have definitely had a baptism of fire, according to your description. 

When I was talking freely (the posts that attracted all the flack), I wasn’t looking for understanding from anybody else. When I wrote those posts, they were for me, to help me understand me. I was talking out loud, or rather writing my thoughts as they were happening and they had the desired affect. Although my posts obviously pressed a few buttons in others, they helped me get clear about me and that was the sole purpose of them. 

I am able to communicate well with all people at all different levels of consciousness and awareness, it is my strong point in my work as a social worker and working with people with so called severe mental health needs but my recent writings were for me. That’s why I said I wasn’t looking for understand from others, it didn’t matter if nobody read what I wrote, they were for me and they helped me considerably. 

I have however, thoroughly enjoyed our conversations so yes, thank you, it’s been a real pleasure. 

Yeah, I learned some huge lessons, not least dissolving the habit of running away.

The old freeze, flight or flight behaviourisms teach much about personal integrity, and as much as one turns tail and runs from something, the more headlong one runs into that something. Everything comes from source and everything goes back to source.

It’s been like a baptism of fire ~ I think! Lol! I don’t really understand what that means but it feels right although I could be totally wrong.

A baptism of fire burns away the darkness (or polarisation) of the soul, to have then reborn the light of one's spiritual sole, the all seeing I of enlightenment, intuition and prophecy, and vitalising the seven selves and living as such in harmony as much in heaven as upon earth.

But basically most take it too mean something along the lines of grinding off ones rough edges, and finishing off one's faceted surfaces (or maskings) by way of really hard work. A soldiers first battle, a doctor or nurses first medical emergency and so on and so fourth. 

Thanks for the info on the types.

Glad to have been of some service. :-)

I can talk to all types but sometimes I just want to talk as me.

Well remove the maskings of verbal ignorance, reveal the architectures of spoken wisdom, and embody in this way more also universal love.

I don’t expect anybody to understand me and neither do I particularly want to but it was fun while it lasted, talking my language.

You do not expect others to understand you, nor do you want particularly to understand yourself either (?) ~ or else you are not particularly concerned with being understood?

Considering that Language is ~ 'the method of human communication, either spoken or written, consisting of the use of words in a structured and conventional way' ~ and is first 'shared' in terms of mimicking speech (mum and dad etc) and then shared again in terms of speaking them with others (family and friends etc), rather than as being individually owned, i.e. your language.

It appears more that you have 'needed' to write according to your choice of and your familiarity with using words, as a process of therapeutic release and individuation ~ rather than so much at first for an interest in the structural conventions (i.e. laws) of language, as used and recognised more generally, or specifically, by others. Yet we have been discussing the latter concern none the less and all more at least so far, and rapture of raptures using spiritual philosophy too (with philosophy meaning a comprehensive understanding and understanding being experiential knowledge). My favourite flavour ~ thank you, very much appreciated. :-)

I lined up a couple of times to go and sleep there but the talk from the others who were lining up, put me off and I had a system of sleeping in the day and walking the streets at night, which I decided I would stick to. That felt safer to me and I had some good places to sleep in the day, such as pubs and I think I was more visible this way, meaning people realised I was homeless and so they would feed me, let me get a shower at their house etc. So I’ve been in hostels as a visitor (my auntie used to work in one) and in other capacities but as for me sleeping in one, my preferred method was to walk the streets at night and that just felt like a better option to me. Plus I didn’t want to line up every night at a certain time just to get in. 

Oh yeah, my support worker is working with me to hammer that word ‘never’ out of me. It was all going well until last Friday then I screamed  ‘I’m NEVER going back to my autism group and I’m NEVER going back on the autism site! Lol! 

I am such a typical text book case aspie it’s untrue, but I love it although I have been doing much better since minimising my use of the word ‘never’. My black and white thinking is getting better by the day as well.

I’ve always been a nomad and I think I always will be.  I took a few years out because my son (little weirdo! Lol) wanted to go to school!!!! It didn’t matter what I tried to do to convince him that I’m sure he’d have more fun coming with me, he wanted to go so he started when he was 6. I thought he might go for a while then get bored of it but he didn’t get fed up till the last year. He was all set to get high grades and go to uni and by that time came he’d had enough ~ at last, I thought, allauya! 

I never went to hostels. I didn’t feel safe in them, I felt safer on the streets

Interesting statement, being that you 'never' went to hostels ~ yet you did not feel safe 'in' them?

Nice example of Autistic Black and White Thinking ~ i.e, the first part of the sentence that you 'never' went to hostels; is contradicted by the second part that you did not feel safe 'in' them.

Is it perhaps that you did not 'use' hostels because of not feeling safe when you had been in them as a visitor, or that you never actually went to one because of not feeling comfortable about using them?

In my case, I seriously needed to experience the individuality of me singularly and freely, and using hostels involved rules and collective conformity with others. Being nomadic for me meant that there was no need or imperative to be with others, nor to interact with them.

DeepthoughtOh absolutely, I love human laws. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not belittling them in anyway. They are a necessity because currently, most people don’t think for themselves and until they do, we absolutely need human laws. 

Like you, they have been helpful to me in so many ways and were key to me getting my clients what they needed when working as a social worker. So I’m not putting them down in anyway and it’s fun to watch as they get more severe as people are beginning to learn how to think for themselves. But it doesn’t matter how severe they get, they will eventually dissolve to the degree that people start to think for themselves and no longer allow themselves to be controlled by them, they will lose their purpose. 

Deepthought

I have no idea what you mean by mistaking laws for principles. 

Are you saying all laws are made by man? If so, we have a different understanding of what a law is. I know there are man made laws, I don’t pay them much attention, but I know they’re there and I work with them in my work when I work for the government. But they aren’t the only laws and they’re certainly not the laws that I live by. 

I live by the laws of know thyself, love thy neighbour, unity, love, the law of cause and effect, those kinds of laws, none of which were made by man. Man didn’t make the law of electricity but he discovered it and made use of it but he didn’t make it. I now drive within speed limits and follows the laws of the road to a greater degree, things like that. I recognise them but they don’t rule my life. 

Deepthought

In terms of the tulip. You call it the ‘principles of nature’ - another word for that could be law. This is what I mean by law. 

Laws aren’t the natural processes ~ this is where I get confused. Let me try to understand ...

Electricity works through the laws of electricity - would you agree? If those laws aren’t followed, someone could at best not get any electricity and at worst they could electrocute themselves. You can’t play around with these laws. You can’t say I’ll follow them one day and not the next. If you want to have the benefits of electricity, such as light, you have to follow the laws.

Like wise, the tulip seed follows the laws of its nature and becomes a fully grown tulip. When all the ingredients are there, soil, water, sun, they will work together along the law of nature to enable the seed to reach its end stage, before it whither and dies. 

I have no clue what that means - that the proof of existential processes do not govern existence. I can’t make any sense of it. Sorry.  

Deepthought

Ok, so this first part, I can’t understand. I don’t know what you mean by ‘principles as consolidations’ ~ I don’t know what a consolidation is and why can’t a principle just be a principal? 

I don’t understand the part about Jesus asking people to form agreements with god in principle? I don’t understand that. He said we are god. 

He didn’t say aspire to love the spirit in you he said this is the law, know thyself, love thyself and love all others as yourself and you will live in bliss, happiness and freedom and you will have all that you want, and more, in this life. We were given free will to chose to live by the law or not. He was simply telling people what the law was and how to achieve it. 

Render to Ceasar would mean to render nothing to him because what does he have? Nothing. 

So all that part was largely confusing to me. 

I’ll answer these points one by one but on different threads. 

I’ll put your name at the beginning so you are less likely to miss the comments because this is really interesting. I don’t understand what you’re saying, but I’m going to do my best. And maybe after a bit of toing and froing I might gain more understanding.

Deepthought

Regarding laws. 

I don’t recognise societal laws, they have no interest to me. So when I talk about laws, I’m talking universal laws, but the description remains accurate. 

Law is a system of rules that are created and enforced, through social or governmental institutions, to regulate behaviour. Law is a system that regulates and ensures that individuals or a community adhere to the will of the state. 

The [natural] laws, is a system of unbreakabke rules that were created ... to regulate behaviour. These laws aren’t enforced, people have free will to follow the laws or not. They are not judged for this in anyway. The laws are a system that regulates and ensures that individuals or a community adhere to the will of the state ~ the state being the creater of the laws, for ease of conversation let’s call that god ~ unless you have any negative connotations attached to that word? 

So for example, love thy neighbour as yourself. That is a law. If you follow this law you will experience bliss, freedom and happiness ~ provided you ‘know thyself’. If you don’t, you will experience any and all of frustration, jealousy, envy, hatred etc etc. 

Nobody will ‘punish’ you if you don’t live by this law, you won’t be judged, but you will not experience the constant bliss, freedom and happiness it gives you in return. 

If you don’t follow it, you will simply reap what you sow. You will plant the seed (the cause, the harmful thoughts) and you will experience the effects of those thoughts. 

It’s a simple law but most people chose to ignore it and as such, they do not experience the freedom. 

Humans create their own laws. They are not based on love and freedom, they are based on things like control, greed, power etc and as such, I do not recognise them. 

I live by the law of love and as it continues to be proven in my life, this law is far greater than any human man made law so I have no reason to recognise or abide by man made laws.