Composer's Syndrome?

I take your point and am glad you have made it.  Personality disorders don't simply appear for no reason.  I know that my ex partner had lots of problems in her childhood and I suspect there may have been some bullying by her father because she couldn't get the grades he wanted her to get at school.  People are shaped by their experiences whether they are born with a condition or not.  People with personality disorders like NPD have unresolved issues that they need help with.  I may not have made my own points very clearly, but I firmly believe that there is good and bad in all people and that people should be treated, if they need it and accept it, before they are condemned.

Some of this is chilling.  I am a little shocked by the strength of the conversation.  Let's remember one thing: people are strange. It's too easy to say there are "narcissists' and "aspies" and I am uncomfortable with ASD = good, NPD = bad.  HOWEVER.. society has a young and primitive set of tools to discuss all this and it may be that where we see an individual behaving badly in a given way, we will call it NPD.  My father definitely hugely controlling and hated by family, roundly applauded onstage (where he could be magnificently evil).  I was in a long relationship which turned into a living hell with a highly manipulative partner.  I'm just realising now that she ticks all those NPD boxes but a sibling of hers was bipolar.  It gets interesting doen't it?  I am really grateful for all these responses. Thank you all.

I have to say that I haven't read anything yet where people are blaming others for having their autism.  That can't be helped because we all should understand that it is something that we are born with.  It's possibly more likely that people have had a lot of problems with others before their diagnosis so have been struggling for an explanation.  I've been bullied a few times, at work and by other members of my own family.  I think it was because they were misunderstanding my behaviour, and I only really found out why that could be when I got my own diagnosis.  I still think that narcissist behaviour is because of a personality disorder, which isn't the same as being born with a condition that can't be cured. I don't think it's wrong to fight for what you think is right.  That sounds like a good thing to do.  More and more people need to fight now it seems when it comes to autism because there are still so many people who don't understand itl

It would be highly unusual for a person with NPD to ever admit to hating themselves, because to do so would make it real and they would have to face and deal with it and they often can't do that and it would be even more unusual for a person to NPD to admit it to their partner - they see their partners as supply and certainly not equal human beings so they will rarely, if ever, admit to the hatred they feel for themselves.

Instead, they will blame everybody else, although 'everybody' usually means their partner or supply at the time. It's interesting that they rarely blame the person who made them feel like that in the first place, which is usually a parent.

And yes, you were very lucky to survive narcissistic abuse, many don't and many who do survive don't ever recover. Narcissists are amazing at finding and setting up supply because to them, their lives depend on it. You're right, aspies don't behave that way, that's the difference. NPD is considererd a much milder form of ASD because they are able to be successful and manipulate etc where many, if not all of us apies, would be unable to do that even if our lives did depend on it. 

I'm the same as you, I'm only really comfortable in the company of other autistic people, not because I don't trust other people, as such, but I just seem able to fully relax in the company of other autistic people, more so than when I'm with my family and friends I both love and trust them but there's something about being with other autistic people that is definitely different. And some of the people I hang out with are non verbal and considered 'severe' but I understand them and get on as well with them as I do any other autistic person. I think it's because we don't care about gender differences or age or what job you do etc etc, we are simply ourselves when we're together. 

Yeah, it was a terrible time when I was in that relationship but even then, I never blamed him for how I was feeling but I did realise the relationship wasn't good for me so I did manage to escape but it wasn't easy. I went to who I consider the best in the world to get recovery from it and I was able to learn so much about myself from the relationship, so with hindsight, I'm glad I had that experience and I feel nothing but love and compassion for the person, although I'm not naive enough to think I could ever have any communication with him.

Narcissists are relentless, they never let things go so I know I would be stepping right back into the lion's den, so I'm happy to keep no contact. It took me several years to fully recover but the programs that I used and the support from Melanie Tonia Evans, who as I said, I consider  to be the best in the world for recovery from narcissistic abuse, really helped and I would say that after 7 years, I am now fully recovered.

Your friend was right, we are the lucky ones :)

The description you have made still doesn't sound like someone with Aspies to me.  My ex partner didn't hate herself and chose to blame me instead for all the problems.  It was funny that after I split up from her I met someone who had known her and worked with her for a few years in the past, and he said that he quickly worked out that she was someone to be avoided, even though she tried to pursue him romantically.  He actually said he thought I was lucky to survive the experience. I was taken in by her because it made me feel so good that a woman was showing me attention, when they hadn't before.  I think narcissists are good at finding people they can victimise and undermine.  It all serves to increase their own sense of power and domination and to bolster their ego.  I dont know any Aspie people like that.  I know three Aspies personally and they are the only people I really trust.  I'm sorry you had such a terrible experience as well. Living hell is right.

Yeah, me too, serious attempt at suicide but it’s not easy to get underneath how the person with narcissism  really feels about themselves.

They often hate themselves so much, due to emotional neglect in childhood, that they over compensate and become very charismatic and they are often high up on the career ladder.

They often, but not always, but mostly, do very well career wise, because to them, it kind of says they aren’t as bad as they thought they were and so they’ll do just about anything to climb that ladder or reach fame and fortune, to the degree they would sell their own granny if it would get them higher up the social or career ladder, they’re so desperate for that external validation. 

Yeah, me too, getting the diagnosis has really helped me with self awareness and acceptance. I’ve found the acceptance has come in layers, I guess, with each new level of self awareness comes another level of self acceptance. 

I’m glad you were able to leave the narcissistic relationship, they can be like a living hell and unfortunately, some people do succeed with their suicide attempts

I can't really comment on other people.  I've only come here recently (having had a recent diagnosis well into my seventh decade of life) so i suppose you know people better than I do.  I'm not sure about the liking thing.  My ex partner certainly liked herself well enough.  She used me as a stepping stone to forward her own career.  It was quite shameless.  She duped me in so many ways.  When it finally all came out, I made a serious attempt at suicide.  i like myself well enough now I think, and I also think my diagnosis has enabled that.  I didn't like myself for many years because other people didn't seem to like me and I thought I must be unlikeable.  I'm now ready to accept myself more.  I don't think I'm a narcissist by any means, but I realise that some of my behaviours might mistakenly lead people ot think so.

Well according to that article there are a quite a few people on this site who have been misdiagnosed with autism when it should be narcissism.

I’ve seen many people on here blaming other people for their problems, they blame their boss, their colleagues, their spouses and I’ve even seen some of them blaming the whole of the nuerotypical population in general, for their troubles, lol and there’s a good few on here who feel sorry for themselves and their situations as well, and they feel envious of other people’s successes and they’re definitely triggered by ego threats, so maybe it’s a thin line?

The major difference that I’ve found between people with autism and people with narcissism is that people with narcissism (in my limited experience) don’t like themselves very much, despite how they might not show that.

So maybe the article is right and there’s a bigger crossover than we thought and that some people have the wrong diagnosis, including many on this site. 

Yeah, me too, I was in a 7 year relationship with somebody with NPD. I’ve written a book about it ~ the gift of narcissism.

That whole relationship nearly killed me, but it became a major turning point in my life and it is what lead to me getting my diagnosis of autism and to me turning my life round completely.

I’ve also worked with people with NPD as well as, as well as thousands of (mostly) women affected by narcistic abuse. 

I’ll read the article, cheers. 

I agree with what Plastic has said.  This article might be useful.  I once had a narcissistic partner which was a horrifying ordeal.  I ended up in hospital because of it. I don't agree with everything the article says, especially about lacking empathy and lacking sensitivity.  I am hypersensitive if anything.

https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/narcissism-vs-aspergers-how-can-i-tell-the-difference-1114174

Oh, I haven’t come across that, in somebody with NPD, i.e. changing their views of what they think is right, that’s interesting to note.

They are often like many aspies though, the ones that I’ve met anyway, in that they will go to their grave fighting for what they believe is right, whether it is or it isn’t, and it usually isn’t, lol, but you’re right, they will rarely (aspies) change their view even when provided with compelling evidence to the contrary, which is of course, one of the reasons they have so much trouble with communication and at places like work and in groups. That doesn’t apply to all of us of course, I’ve never had any difficulties at work or working in groups etc but many do because they’re unable to change their views etc and what they think is right. 

Because an Aspie view of what is right does not change - it's still right.  A narcissist changes their views to manipulate and twist things to their own advantage.

How do you know that a person with NPD isn’t doing what they think is just and right? How many people with NPD have you been involved with or are involved with, to know this about them? Are you saying, that all the ones that you’re involved with are all the same and driven by the same things? This is highly interesting. 

I haven’t met or been involved with that many people with NPD to be able to make that assessment so I’m interested in this. They can be very damaging to be around, for most people, but I find them, like I find most people, highly fascinating so I’d love to hear more about your findings.

The mind and how it works is a special interest of mine. And  I agree, it’s  not possible to judge a person from their outside behaviour, well you can, but you will only ever get, at best,  a one sided impression, and with people with diverse minds especially, you need to speak to them and really get to know them, over a prolonged period of time, to get to know what drives them and makes them tick etc, so I’m seriously super interested to find out what the people with NPD that you’re involved with, have said about what drives them?

Many (not all, of course) autistic people are focussed completely on what they think is just and right, to them, to the exclusion of almost all else, including relationships with others, even members of their own family and sometimes even to the exclusion of work. Some find it almost impossible to tear themselves away from their special interests and hobbies. I know I do. So in this sense, we (clearly not all) autistic people are much more interested in ourselves, meaning our hobbies and interests, than other people. This is by no means a reflection of how we feel about other people though. I love all people, equally, and with as much love as I have for myself and life itself, I’m like some weird village idiot pollyana type of person, but I don’t want to spend most of my time with people, even though they love me and I love them and I enjoy their company and they mine. In many respects, I’d like to spend more time with them but my brain isn’t wired that way. I guess I’m at the more severe end of the spectrum whereas it seems that some people on the milder end (in terms of self, I know it’s a spectrum and there are other things such as SPD etc) are more people focussed and less self focussed, which sounds (to me) like heaven rather than a disability because I’d love to be able to spend more time with my family and friends. 

NT people are generally more people focussed as opposed to self focussed. Their brain is wired differently and that’s why they enjoy to spend more time with other people, in groups, families and communities etc and why they find relationships easy, it’s part of their make up. Again, this is general of course because all people, nt or nd are different, including nd people such as those with NPD (or so I thought) or other personality disorders, adhd and pda  etc. There’s diversity in those with diverse brains as well as those with more nuerotypical brains and I know some nt people who prefer to spend more time by themselves than with other people, or at least a good chunk of their time.  

People with NPD fall somewhere in between. They can be very focussed, like people with ASD, but they’re more outward/people  focussed. Like nt people, they need that social interaction with other people, but, because of the way they think about themselves, deep down - (from what I’ve learned from them anyway, this is why I’m interested to hear what you’ve found) - and their deficit in empathy therefore their deficit in social skills (link to ASD), they struggle to get the same feedback that nt people get and without help, they will most likely always struggle, and it can be like a self fulfilling prophesy because they appear (to many people who don’t know about brain diversity) like terrible people, which further isolates and excludes them from the very society they’re so desperately trying to win over, although there are some famous and less famous people with NPD who have been able to build successful and loving relationships and careers. 

I really don't get this - All the Aspies I've ever known are driven by doing what is right and just.   All the narcissists are driven by what is in it for them - stuff anyone else - it's about them - and how they can twist any situation to their advantage..

I can't see any link in it whatsoever.

I can see that an NT observer might confuse the two - but I suggest they are diametrically opposite.

Hi, yes, there is definitely a link between NPD and autism, or Asperger’s Syndrome and NPD at least, and I believe that in the future (I think they missed the inclusion in ICD11, but they are definitely talking of putting it in the next update), NPD will also come under the heading of autism, which is about time as people with NPD currently get a terrible time in society. It is usually males who are diagnosed more with NPD than females, but maybe that is more to do with how males are socialised , I don’t know. It was the same with autism and Asperger’s syndrome in the beginning, they were both felt to be more common in males, when they first began to identify it. 

However, that pathological need to be seen, that you talk about, is actually a basic human need which can be elevated (not sure if that’s the right word) in people with ASD as we don’t tend to get that very important, in fact, crucial, daily feedback through interaction with others (who are similar to us)  that people who aren’t on the spectrum get, without even realising it.

It’s a very important part of friendships (the feedback loop) and as people on the spectrum tend to have less friends and do less socialising, they are missing this very important ingredient. To get that feedback, we need to be socialising with other people who are similar to us and we don’t have to do a lot of it (socialising) to get the benefits. I go to a couple of weekly autism groups and I get the feedback from there. I used to get it from this site as well but I think some of the people who post regularly on this forum are maybe at the milder end of the spectrum as they don’t have that self obsession that is in the more classic autism and I am more towards that end of the spectrum and one of my autism groups is largely made up of people who are at the more (for want of a better word) severe end of the spectrum, and that’s where I’m generally most comfortable and get the most feedback. Many of my friends there are non verbal. 

But also, you also have the artistic gene. You’re an artist and part of the artist’s make up, is to express and share their art and if you (not you necessarily) are not able to share it, for whatever reason, it would certainly make the need to be seen/heard feel pathological as it would loom larger than most other needs that we have simply because it isn’t getting met. If a need remains unfulfilled, it doesn’t just suddenly go away, and instead, it can actually feel like it’s getting bigger, when really, it’s just not getting met and if it were to get met, it wouldn’t seem such a big deal anymore.

And most, if not all artists, will say that they come alive when they’re on stage, performing, doing their thing, like it’s the only time they feel good. This isn’t anything to do with narcissism, it is to do with meeting that basic need to seen and heard and because an artist’s way of being seen and heard is often through the expression of their artistic gifts, I can see how you might think it’s a kind of narcissism, but it’s not. 

And people with Asperger’s syndrome can often appear to be narcissistic to the untrained eye, and maybe they are, some times - most people are (autistic or not) narcissistic  some times, but it doesn’t mean they have NPD. 

NPD isn’t as severe as Asperger’s in most ways, they say it’s a milder form of Asperger’s and I think that’s why it never made it into the DM5, however, in another way, it is way more devastating for the individual who has NPD and currently, although this is changing, they are rarely getting any support and are seen by most people in society to be the devil incarnate, which often further isolates them and makes them even less likely to seek help. 

I don’t know why NPD has been classified and seen as a milder form of Asperger’s because in my experience it is even more debilitating for the individual but that might just be because it is largely going undiagnosed and untreated so individuals are trying to live with it without support and I and many others on the spectrum can say how debilitating it can be to live with undiagnosed autism, and people with NPD have the added ingredient of being hated by most of society as well, as most of society seem to forget that it’s a neurological condition and not some dude who only seems to like to get their needs met by manipulating and treating others badly. 

Both autistic people and people with NPD struggle with relationships and communication in general because of the way the brain is wired that makes them very self focussed. I understand there are people now on the mild end of the spectrum who aren’t so self focussed so maybe their difficulties in relationships (if they have them) are more to do with sensory processing disorders? I don’t know ‍♀️ 

Also, some people on the spectrum are more closely related to what is often called their ‘true self’ which means they can often been seen somewhat like somebody with NPD as they see, feel, hear and experience the world in a very different way to most people so they are often misunderstood and put into the NPD box, as people feel more comfortable if they can put people in boxes, it helps them understand their world, so it’s a useful tool but as we know, people outside the box can often get lost and not know where their place is and putting them in a wrong box can often hinder and not help them to find their place. A lot of people on this part of the spectrum go into working as vicars etc and can come across as quite narcissistic at times. 

I don’t think you have NPD I think you’re an amazing artist who hasn’t yet found his platform but please please please don’t give in, that need in you won’t go away, it needs to be fulfilled and that’s not narcissistic, it’s a basic human need. Your female relation, for example, has found her platform by being a scientists. She would probably start displaying the same pathological tendencies if, for example, her work was being ignored. 

You sound like you not only have the gift of artistry (if that’s even a word, lol), but you’re also intelligent, philosophical and thoughtful. It sounds like you’re very gifted, which can often make life seem extra difficult at times, but don’t give up on your musical ideas as they need to be expressed. We all have an inner need to express ourselves and our gifts, otherwise what would be the point in having them? We’re only here for each other, to make life better for each other, and music definitely does that for many of us, so let the music live unleash the music :) 

One thing about people with NPD is that they have a devastating underlying inner belief that they are real terrible people. It’s extremely isolating and soul crushing to the point they often can’t even talk about it, even to somebody they know cares about them. I can’t imagine anything worse than that, so for me, I see it as a more severe form of Asperger’s Syndrome and although I’ve been on the end of narcissistic abuse, my heart goes out to them because to not like or love yourself must be bad enough but to hate yourself, is beyond what I can imagine and the thought of somebody hating themselves makes me want to love them even more, which is probably why I ended up in a relationship with one and working with them in my professional career, lol! 

Ain't it just so! Oh GOD there is some downright awful thoughtless mean-spirited music out there.. I'd better not continue!

Thanks - good to hear from a professional.  To be clear the question is not really about me - it's about the autism in my family and whether there is a particular kind of autism which has NPD characteristics which we could associate with autistic performers - Eminem for instance. I'd say it is certainly hereditary and a dominant gene passed through males - I am the only son. Females in the family are ASD diagnosed also but don't have to get on a stage to feel they've had a good day! One is a scientist. The hypothesis would be it's males get the NP bit.  It's the case in my family anyway and I wonder if it's found elsewhere.

Your paragraph that begins "Don't give up" (thank you) is brilliant.  It makes me see something about what I am saying and it's this:  the need to perform is beyond the need simply to communicate. Art is more than the stuff its made of. The "narcissistic" element for me is to do with feeling that it is extremely important that I be heard. It is seeing connections between disparate things and needing to ask questions or draw things together in a way that isn't normal communication.  It's more than a feeling, it's a pathology that has driven me forever.  It's how my life began - no friends, no social life until some kids who were musos heard me at the piano and suddenly I had a gang.  And then you don't.

In recent years I often joked that I wasn't really a musician I was just ill.  Good joke!

Yeah - NTs make all the definitions based on their own experiences - which do not apply to our world.

It's great you have musical talent - there's a lot of technology around that can give you the freedom to create the music in your heart.  

Are you into computers?   You can get some amazing music production software so you can become your own full orchestra so you can produce a finished piece of music - you can even release on the interwebs yourself. 

There's some cool vocal choir synthsisers and vocalist machines to multiply your own voice & create harmonies around yourself if you want  large ensemble choirs to go with the music.  I played with a Roland synth some years ago that could do Gregorian Chants - it was amazing.

I say go for it - get creating - there's nothing stopping you.

I think you're probably right.  it's their definition based on their own set of understandings.  I don't mean the words in quite the same way.  I am what most people would call self-absorbed because I spend most of my time doing my own thing and not socialising.  But that doesn't mean that I'm selfish or narcissistic.  I like to be kind and generous to others.