Sign the petition

The NAS has created a petition to “Stop the detention of people with autism and learning disabilities in ATU’s”

I have just signed it and urge everyone too as well. 

There but for.....

Get family and friends to as well.  80,000 signatures needed to get a debate in Parliament.

Parents
  • Signed. I ended up in a mental health hospital - which was a 2.5 hour drive away - run by the Priory Group. I was told if I didn’t go - by someone I had never met before, 30 seconds after meeting him - I would be sectioned. I was there for nearly a month. Whilst there I witnessed patients being forcibly restrained and given an injection. 

    Patients were not allowed outside the building unless the psychiatrist gave permission. I didn’t see the psychiatrist for the first 8 days. It was a secure unit and I was only allowed out after finding a member of staff willing to unlock the exit door. They took details of what I was wearing and said if I was longer than the allotted time, they would call the police.

    Now I’m afraid to access help because I’m worried I’ll get locked up again.


  • Now I’m afraid to access help because I’m worried I’ll get locked up again.

    Knowing your rights is essential in respect of getting appropriately treated or else out elsewhere for more befitting reasons.

    Here's a general listing of what's what involving whom and when with being or not being sectioned:


    https://www.rethink.org/carers-family-friends/brothers-and-sisters-siblings-network/get-info-and-advice/sibling-faqs/what-does-being-sectioned-mean


    I got put up for section and my psychologist would not sign off on it, so basically I became an out patient at where it was originally intended for me to be sectioned ~ once I was discharged by the psychologist who prevented the section in the first place.

    My GP had unwittingly miss prescribed my medication resulting in me having major seizures left, right, front, back, up, down and flip fitting centre everywhere . . . several times a day, and hence the GP and their lot kept pushing for the section as the Ambulance crews and Hospital staff were having major problems with the old hulkian aspergenic strength thing. 

    Once "I" realised the medication mistake, through "my" researches, everything calmed down once "I" got it sorted out.

    I had to get alot of things sorted myself, and it was often surprising (in that here we go again way) that I had to explain correct procedure and legal outcomes to health professionals ~ so many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many times.

    I mean bless us all ~ we are all on "L" plates in this life, but when avid new health-workers hit the front-lines, the biological and psychological messes their patients are in messes them up too, yet often they are too overworked and robotically habituated to notice until they themselves burn out, break down, or worse.

    Worth considering also, Doctor to patient superiority where the Doctor is knowledgeable and the patient is ignorant ~ is standard procedure. It is important to respect this, most especially considering how ignorant some Doctors, some people and even ourselves really can be.

    One extent of Doctors though are well into Patients being experts upon their own conditions, the other extent are not.

    Advocacy services are a seriously good idea though ~ so if you find yourself not getting anywhere by asking for 'REASONABLE ADJUSTMENTS' in respect of NHS (or other) SERVICES, as according to the Equality ACT 2010 (in full detail):


    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/pdfs/ukpga_20100015_en.pdf


    (brief and simple):


    https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/your-rights-under-equality-act-2010


    Then get in contact or have someone get in contact with an Advocacy Service, and they will get your situation addressed appropriately and accordingly.

    Here's one perhaps to ponder or maybe even use:


    https://www.seap.org.uk/


  • Worth considering also, Doctor to patient superiority where the Doctor is knowledgeable and the patient is ignorant ~ is standard procedure.

    Maybe, but by reading this thread, and the issue that started it, maybe it shouldn't. Besides I've come across quite a few doctors that have been more than willing to admit they aren't familiar with autism, and how it affects people. That's professionalism.

    It is important to respect this, most especially considering how ignorant some Doctors, some people and even ourselves really can be.

    It isn't. Far from it. If I'm seeing a doctor who is so ignorant and/or unprofessional it's dangerous. It's my duty to myself, and the people coming into that doctors care, not to respect it.

    It's all good playing devil's advocate, and saying everyone is ignorant in some capacity, but if someone is employed to do a job in which ignorance endangers people, I'm more than glad to highlight that ignorance. Negligence can be passed off as ignorance.

    I wouldn't be comfortable with anyone being put at risk, myself, yourself, and anyone else included.

Reply
  • Worth considering also, Doctor to patient superiority where the Doctor is knowledgeable and the patient is ignorant ~ is standard procedure.

    Maybe, but by reading this thread, and the issue that started it, maybe it shouldn't. Besides I've come across quite a few doctors that have been more than willing to admit they aren't familiar with autism, and how it affects people. That's professionalism.

    It is important to respect this, most especially considering how ignorant some Doctors, some people and even ourselves really can be.

    It isn't. Far from it. If I'm seeing a doctor who is so ignorant and/or unprofessional it's dangerous. It's my duty to myself, and the people coming into that doctors care, not to respect it.

    It's all good playing devil's advocate, and saying everyone is ignorant in some capacity, but if someone is employed to do a job in which ignorance endangers people, I'm more than glad to highlight that ignorance. Negligence can be passed off as ignorance.

    I wouldn't be comfortable with anyone being put at risk, myself, yourself, and anyone else included.

Children

  • Worth considering also, Doctor to patient superiority where the Doctor is knowledgeable and the patient is ignorant ~ is standard procedure.

    Maybe, but by reading this thread, and the issue that started it, maybe it shouldn't. Besides I've come across quite a few doctors that have been more than willing to admit they aren't familiar with autism, and how it affects people. That's professionalism.


    For the lesser majority of people that have little and the larger majority that have no medical knowledge ~ the Doctor is a superior and that is that with no if, but or maybes.

    The GP though has a professional code of conduct  which before anything else means he or she is an inferior to their superior (another Doctor or Specialist etc) to whom a Patient may or will be referred to.

    There is also the fact that no matter how powerful a superior may be in their governance or management of anything ~ a Doctor has the authority (experience and qualification) to belay or forbid an individual from exercising power.

    Hence as you state that is professionalism, definitely, and as according to this thread ~ anything other than the standard procedure regarding caring for any state of body and or mind, requires better service provision if it is not being adequately provided  ~ without question, most definitely. :-)

    Not respecting this is obviously a problem, but when I refer to 'Respect' I am not referring to submission to an authority, just that we appreciate the 'nature of the beast' sort of thing, and navigate the territory accordingly.


    It is important to respect this, most especially considering how ignorant some Doctors, some people and even ourselves really can be.

    It isn't. Far from it. If I'm seeing a doctor who is so ignorant and/or unprofessional it's dangerous. It's my duty to myself, and the people coming into that doctors care, not to respect it.


    Respect it for what it is and if it is dangerous / improper practice ~ speak or write to a practice manager or whomever thereafter. Or even better possibly seek info or advice before doing so if you are unfamiliar with the complaints procedure at your surgery or other health service provider. 


    It's all good playing devil's advocate, and saying everyone is ignorant in some capacity, but if someone is employed to do a job in which ignorance endangers people, I'm more than glad to highlight that ignorance. Negligence can be passed off as ignorance.

    There is no playing as devil's advocate regarding what I have made account of, it is simply an explanation of how the system works or operates, and like any system or mechanism, there are rules and procedures to be followed, and particular methodologies to be considered and applied, as and when need be. 

    In terms of negligence being passed off as ignorance, people may attempt to do as such ~ but when negligence is negligence, and ignorance is ignorance, along with incompetence being incompetence of course, each needs addressing respectfully as they are individually, and thereby as such appropriately.


    I wouldn't be comfortable with anyone being put at risk, myself, yourself, and anyone else included.

    I would not be comfortable with describing someone as playing devil's advocate either. I should have been clearer about what I meant by respect ~ i.e., to be considerate of rather than in agreement with.


  • For the lesser majority of people that have little and the larger majority that have no medical knowledge ~ the Doctor is a superior and that is that with no if, but or maybes.

    If a Doctor says that they literally have no knowledge of a condition, and the patient and their support network does, they aren't superior or A superior. That's my position at the moment.

    That is literally the point of this petition. People are being made A SUPERIOR, with agency over people with autism, who have little or no medical knowledge of a condition.

    A Doctor is not a superior. To anyone who is their patient. In fact they are actually supposed to serve the patient.

    The GP though has a professional code of conduct  which before anything else means he or she is an inferior to their superior (another Doctor or Specialist etc) to whom a Patient may or will be referred to.

    Yes, that's usually how it works.

    There is also the fact that no matter how powerful a superior may be in their governance or management of anything ~ a Doctor has the authority (experience and qualification) to belay or forbid an individual from exercising power.

    A superior in the Doctor's chain of command can review and override a decision they make.

    Some Doctors have neither the experience or qualification to make a knowledgable decision on any individuals right on exercising power. They might be given the responsibility. Which again is the point of this thread and this petition.

    Hence as you state that is professionalism, definitely, and as according to this thread ~ anything other than the standard procedure regarding caring for any state of body and or mind, requires better service provision if it is not being adequately provided  ~ without question, most definitely. :-)

    This directly contradicts the last paragraph. You misunderstand my statement, or maybe you don't.....

    I refer to professionalism as listening to a patient, or another doctor who understands the individuals needs, and respecting the information accordingly. Not playing god because you are in a position to.

    Not respecting this is obviously a problem, but when I refer to 'Respect' I am not referring to submission to an authority, just that we appreciate the 'nature of the beast' sort of thing, and navigate the territory accordingly.

    It really isn't a problem. Really. I can absolutely despise something, and still navigate the territory accordingly. It's not about submission either, some of the stuff carried doesn't give the patient the opportunity to submit.

    I'd say that understanding the "nature of the beast" is more apt! The only way to go is to navigate the territory accordingly, that's procedure. I'd love to suplex a shrink through a table, but letter writing, keeping every record you can, and presenting a reasonable, logical, complaint, (or if you struggle finding help) is the best way to go. Besides I might hurt my back, or break a perfectly good table.

    *** dude, you don't have to respect something that isn't respecting you!

    Respect it for what it is and if it is dangerous / improper practice ~ speak or write to a practice manager or whomever thereafter. Or even better possibly seek info or advice before doing so if you are unfamiliar with the complaints procedure at your surgery or other health service provider. 

    I don't respect my situation for what it is. It's frankly a completely disgraceful shambles. I'm making a complaint, as per my rights, and I know the procedure.

    There is no playing as devil's advocate regarding what I have made account of, it is simply an explanation of how the system works or operates, and like any system or mechanism, there are rules and procedures to be followed, and particular methodologies to be considered and applied, as and when need be. 

    "Worth considering also, Doctor to patient superiority where the Doctor is knowledgeable and the patient is ignorant ~ is standard procedure. It is important to respect this, most especially considering how ignorant some Doctors, some people and even ourselves really can be."

    That is playing devil's advocate. Not explaining an actual methodology.

    In terms of negligence being passed off as ignorance, people may attempt to do as such ~ but when negligence is negligence, and ignorance is ignorance, along with incompetence being incompetence of course, each needs addressing respectfully as they are individually, and thereby as such appropriately.

    People don't attempt to, people actually carry it out.

    People have to be aware of when this is happening. 

    When they are addressed they should be addressed appropriately. Again looking at the petition, and this thread this isn't always the case.

    I would not be comfortable with describing someone as playing devil's advocate either.

    I would.

    I should have been clearer about what I meant by respect ~ i.e., to be considerate of rather than in agreement with.

    You haven't really done much to clear this up. Just been more verbose and stuck to your guns in a roundabout manner.

    I'm reading your story. I'm reading Graham's story. I read Sunflower's links. I know my dilemma. We haven't been respected, and it seems that the people treating us haven't much care for respecting procedure or respecting patients, families or their profession.

    I'd suggest signing the petition, then you may have a more honest system to respect.


  • For the lesser majority of people that have little and the larger majority that have no medical knowledge ~ the Doctor is a superior and that is that with no if, but or maybes.

    If a Doctor says that they literally have no knowledge of a condition, and the patient and their support network does, they aren't superior or A superior. That's my position at the moment.

    That is literally the point of this petition. People are being made A SUPERIOR, with agency over people with autism, who have little or no medical knowledge of a condition.

    A Doctor is not a superior. To anyone who is their patient. In fact they are actually supposed to serve the patient.


    The Doctor is a superior in terms of their rank, status and quality of health care provision.

    A superior is in essence a boss having work done by and for them as professionally involves productive outcomes.

    The only time a Doctor is not as such a superior ~ is when they have been struck off from the medical register by the General Medical Council (GMC).

    Consider for example:


    http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/hot-topics/bawa-garba/bawa-garba-tip-of-iceberg-as-seven-doctors-struck-off-after-gmc-appeals/20036341.article

    and

    https://www.gmc-uk.org/


    The GP though has a professional code of conduct  which before anything else means he or she is an inferior to their superior (another Doctor or Specialist etc) to whom a Patient may or will be referred to.

    Yes, that's usually how it works.


    So you disagree with a Doctor being a superior ~ but despite this it is common practice that they can refer patients to a Doctor that is their superior in another field of specialisation. 

    A Doctor is not a superior and a Doctor is a superior ~ usually!?!?

    Contradiction factor ten perhaps?




    There is also the fact that no matter how powerful a superior may be in their governance or management of anything ~ a Doctor has the authority (experience and qualification) to belay or forbid an individual from exercising power.

    A superior in the Doctor's chain of command can review and override a decision they make.


    Exactly ~ yes! :-)


    Some Doctors have neither the experience or qualification to make a knowledgable decision on any individuals right on exercising power. They might be given the responsibility. Which again is the point of this thread and this petition.

    Doctors as such are qualified as Doctors and if they lack experience in a particular field they consult or confer with their colleagues in the same practice or in other practices and fields.

    If incompetence (inability), negligence (disregard) or malpractice (mistakes) are involved, then of course letters are to be written to whom they may concern.

    The fact that health services have been disastrously underfunded, understaffed and overworked and overstretched ~ is the reason why there are not enough trained personnel, and even if they are well trained ~ not being well rested or adequately supported due to staff shortages leads eventually to mistakes, mental and physical ill health and if not ~ alternative career choices.

    Long term staff retention is something of legend going on to become a myth now, and here today gone tomorrow staffing is occurring more and more for patients as staff turnover and shortages in staff increase.


    Hence as you state that is professionalism, definitely, and as according to this thread ~ anything other than the standard procedure regarding caring for any state of body and or mind, requires better service provision if it is not being adequately provided  ~ without question, most definitely. :-)

    This directly contradicts the last paragraph. You misunderstand my statement, or maybe you don't.....

    I refer to professionalism as listening to a patient, or another doctor who understands the individuals needs, and respecting the information accordingly. Not playing god because you are in a position to.


    In terms of what you think professionalism to be in respect of the Doctor-Patient relationship ~ very well put indeed.

    I find the notion of me playing at being the absolute and infinite state of existence a "BIT" tooooooooooooooooo far fetched. :-)

    Humour (or my attempt at it) aside ~ no one should be treated in a way that discriminates against them as an individual. Too right!


    Not respecting this is obviously a problem, but when I refer to 'Respect' I am not referring to submission to an authority, just that we appreciate the 'nature of the beast' sort of thing, and navigate the territory accordingly.

    It really isn't a problem. Really. I can absolutely despise something, and still navigate the territory accordingly. It's not about submission either, some of the stuff carried doesn't give the patient the opportunity to submit.


    I was not referring to you as having a problem Cloudy ~ I was referring to the problem of not respecting that standard care involves treating everyone compassionately as an individual.

    There seems to be a problem though in terms of you imagining that you were being described as having a problem.    


    I'd say that understanding the "nature of the beast" is more apt! The only way to go is to navigate the territory accordingly, that's procedure. I'd love to suplex a shrink through a table, but letter writing, keeping every record you can, and presenting a reasonable, logical, complaint, (or if you struggle finding help) is the best way to go. Besides I might hurt my back, or break a perfectly good table.

    Not hurting your back and not messing with the Society for the Prevention of Violence Towards Tables is essential! ;-)


    *** dude, you don't have to respect something that isn't respecting you!

    I respect all living things for the fact that they each as mysteries exist, whether I like the way humans behave or not does not and has not been able to change that.


    Respect it for what it is and if it is dangerous / improper practice ~ speak or write to a practice manager or whomever thereafter. Or even better possibly seek info or advice before doing so if you are unfamiliar with the complaints procedure at your surgery or other health service provider. 

    I don't respect my situation for what it is. It's frankly a completely disgraceful shambles. I'm making a complaint, as per my rights, and I know the procedure.


    I take the approach of respecting everything and when people show little or no respect to me, at least there is one person being duly diligent and setting an example.

    Apologies if it seems I have suggested that you do not know the procedure ~ it's that writing for other readers also thing. One hopes that in time all this data survives to remind humans how bad it got, and and how much work it took to make it better for everyone autistic or not.


    There is no playing as devil's advocate regarding what I have made account of, it is simply an explanation of how the system works or operates, and like any system or mechanism, there are rules and procedures to be followed, and particular methodologies to be considered and applied, as and when need be. 

    "Worth considering also, Doctor to patient superiority where the Doctor is knowledgeable and the patient is ignorant ~ is standard procedure. It is important to respect this, most especially considering how ignorant some Doctors, some people and even ourselves really can be."

    That is playing devil's advocate. Not explaining an actual methodology.


    In order to play devils advocate one is required to pretend or intend to cast doubt upon the objective ~ in order to better achieve it or not.

    I have neither asked any question nor pointed out any particularities or inconsistencies involving the petition and its objective.

    In order to understand 'and' comprehend the methodology I have been discussing, it helps to know the neurological typocracy of the system:

    Most children long to be as big, strong and clever as their parents and guardians who overlook and control them ~ because it is mostly oppressive, with at least psychological humiliation, and at most physiological annihilation ~ to inspire people to habitually share and compulsively enforce more abuse themselves.

    Think of the homeless in January and February and that warning not to be one of them . . .

    As such there is a socially shared and enforced ideological hierarchy of systemic sexism, ageism and tribalism, but most people are too traumatised to register how habitually pervasive and damaging it is.

    But just as humorous introduction to the trinity of elitism, consider perhaps the following:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxpZkKKbDgA


    And for a bit of historical elitism:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JSahEDRjvw


    And a methodology as already posted but none the less as requested:


    The basic thing with GP's is present the symptoms and let them come up with the name ~ such as Doctor so and so at the nearest neurology unit! ;-)

    Or if they do give a preliminary diagnosis of a condition, and you are certain it is something else, ask if that condition is like the one you are certain of.

    Always though use the spirit of inquiry and be reserved with the certainty. In this way the Doctor (in power or in charge of) Patient relationship is maintained, rather than strained.

    Also, try not to be annoyed about your GP not informing himself about your condition, as for the afore stated reasons, and that they really do have insane and insane making workloads. Anything from the most uplifting and inspiring births to the most depressing, distressing and ugly deaths, and vice versa. Day in day out.

    To bypass this write a letter informing your GP of what is what symptom wise, and ask if might be what you think it is, and state you would be great full for any suggestions.  It will go on your medical record and the appointment notated. Plus your GP is prepared and can feel more in control, bless! 


    In terms of negligence being passed off as ignorance, people may attempt to do as such ~ but when negligence is negligence, and ignorance is ignorance, along with incompetence being incompetence of course, each needs addressing respectfully as they are individually, and thereby as such appropriately.

    People don't attempt to, people actually carry it out.


    Hence I stated when as such so, the problem, whatever it may be, needs dealing with individually and therefore appropriately with compassion.

    Obviously getting in touch with an Advocacy Service allows a case number to  be issued and followed up if need be, and will also be logged as statistical data for governmental or legal purview.


    People have to be aware of when this is happening. 

    Hence I provided the Equality Act 2010 and the Advocacy link.


    When they are addressed they should be addressed appropriately. Again looking at the petition, and this thread this isn't always the case.

    Toooo right.

    The fact even that people are having to know the details of the Equality Act 2010 or have an Advocate to get appropriate treatment is fundamentally illegal.

    Plus the fact that anything that comes of the petitions, usually at best takes a few years. So as  stated:


    You are right, fore warned is fore armed

    I would not be comfortable with describing someone as playing devil's advocate either.

    I would.


    Consider that I stated in essence that I do not make accusations, and neither do I find comfort in people being put at risk.

    Then you stated that you would.

    Surely you missed that yes?

    You meant only that you would call someone a devil's advocate possibly?


    I'm reading your story. I'm reading Graham's story. I read Sunflower's links. I know my dilemma. We haven't been respected, and it seems that the people treating us haven't much care for respecting procedure or respecting patients, families or their profession.

    Here's another one of several avenues of relevance I have to keep abreast of ~ when I can keep up with things:


    https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/


    Note perhaps the Green Paper on improved healthcare provision has as the political expression goes ~ been kicked into the long grass . . . . again:


    https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/anger-over-latest-delay-to-social-care-green-paper/


    I'd suggest signing the petition, then you may have a more honest system to respect.

    So you propose that by doing what you imagine not having been done, goes along with what you imagine will then stop your imagination of me from helping to bring about a more dishonest system.

    Here lies below the first difficulty with your statement:


    Some Doctors have neither the experience or qualification to make a knowledgable decision on any individuals right on exercising power.

    Yet you imagined that you had the right to have influence on my right to exercise individual power!

    The imaginative accusations of playing devils advocate and putting other peoples lives at risk are the second difficulty in terms of being libellous*.    

    *Libel: a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation; a written defamation. 


    Community Rule Number 1.

    Content must not be obscene, defamatory or libellous, vulgar, sexually orientated, hateful, threatening, or in violation of any laws.

    https://www.autism.org.uk/get-involved/about-us/website/site-terms.aspx


    Maintaining presumptions of procrastination, and continuing on to make speculative accusations ~ is discriminatory*.

    * Discrimination: treating a person or particular group of people differently from others.


    Community Rule Number 2.

    Content must not be sexist, homophobic, racist, intolerant of religious beliefs, or otherwise discriminatory.

    https://www.autism.org.uk/get-involved/about-us/website/site-terms.aspx


    So go for questions rather than accusations, and do the pro-social thing ~ which is welcoming for everybody else and according to the community rules as well. :-)



  • I didn't read much of the above, I doubt anyone else will either, probably a load of redefinitions and obsfucation misusing verbosity to double down, but I'd imagine it hit a nerve for you to use the rules out of context. I can't see any basis for you to do that except ego and tantrum. A bit of a cop out. If you have a problem report me.

    I'd imagine the admins probably frown on false reports.


    Well I have reported my self on the basis that my post may be a false report. Just to be certain.

    In the spirit of being pro-social, belated Merry Christmas.

    Absolutely ~ have a very merry season of festivities and a very good one in general; as filled with infinitely more.  :-)
    And a happy new year in the same way also! :-)