Toxic masculinity

Writer and journalist Caitlin Moran, I think it was recently asked in Twitter what were the downsides to being a man?

The responses were overwhelming and she set up a Facebook group called The Society of Decent Fellows.  

I don’t do Facebook. So I thought it would be helpful for us on the spectrum to discuss this also.

For me it’s the expectation to be all assertive, confident and have the body beautiful.  That’s not really me. I would like to have a relationship but I can’t tell if someone is “in to me” and I wouldn’t have a clue how to be in a relationship any way. 

So over to you guys.

  • Toxic: identifying so much with one tribe that you lose respect for others.

    Humans generally have enough of a tendancy to do this that it requires conscious, considered effort to counter.  

  • Toxic femininity certainly exists too. Women do police other females' appearance, body shape, conduct and so on. It results in eating disorders, stress, anxiety and self-destructive behaviour.

    Not to belittle that, toxic masculinity is a bigger problem still. It's largely responsible for the higher rates of suicide, homicide and other violent crime by men. And it affects the whole of society, as the macho men in power show their strength by being "tough" against disadvantaged groups, by starting wars and building walls.

  • I would like to have a relationship but I can’t tell if someone is “in to me” and I wouldn’t have a clue how to be in a relationship any way. 

    Do you show people “you” btw. Just thinking of the Aspie masking thing...which is like showing the world you are via smoke and mirrors. That old trying to fit in / self preservation  mechanism

  • This made me smile. It was one of the placards at a womens march held in London yesterday.

    I like  the literal nature of the signage btw. 

    We’re just people. Labels can make people lazy, assumptions can make people reckless, inequality (perceived or real) can lead to aggression.

    Face value judgements of worth or interest mean many people remain hidden...or tucked away and posting on forums, like me :) 

  • There was a TV program many years ago about masculinity and what it means to be a man!

    One of the main participants was very clear.  He talked about being in prison as if it was a rite of passage.  Although he didn't want a second prison spell.  Once was enough.

  • What about toxic femininity?  Eye searingly bright pink colours, vast amounts of make-up - "insta-face", fashionable clothing that often seems verging on the socially unacceptable, hunting in loud uncouth packs, excluding and bullying people not in their in-crowd, flirting and sucking up to try and get what they want, relying on looks rather than ability, constantly flirting with perceived good looking/hunk members of the opposite sex, starts from an early age - but really kicks in around puberty, ...

  • I hate the expectations that come with genders and the assumptions that can be made if you don't fit into that expectation. It baffles me that there is such a marked difference between the expectations for boys/girls and men/women. People are people and they should be allowed to be whoever they are. To me gender should be no more than the biological parts you have. The way you dress and act or the hobbies you take up etc should be part of your personality, not your gender.

    For me being female, I always get comments about the way I dress, the fact I don't wear make up or anything like that and the fact that I often like activities which tend to be more typically male. It is something that can be very frustrating.

    This mixed with the fact I have never been in a relationship and don't have much interest in being a relationship has also led to people questioning my sexuality. I always get the it'd ok if you are gay line to which I reply I know it would be but it's also ok if I'm not.

  • Not too bothered about the opinions of Gillette as I havent shaved in over thirty years Joy

  • No no no no no no!  I iz meez, youz iz youz.  Innit!

  • I am me. Simples x

  • A lot of autistic people seem to be less traditionally masculine or feminine. More identify as transgender or non-binary than in the general population. We find it less important to belong to a tribe or category of people.

    I'm a man by default, but I don't subscribe to the societal idea of how to be masculine. I should like cars and football, have short hair, prefer steak to cake... these are biases I have no problem ignoring. However, there are deeper, more toxic ideas that I do struggle with. Being friends with other men is extra hard, because I know from school that if you get *too* close, you get teased for being gay. Being friends with women is out too, because men don't do that, they either fancy women or consider them irrelevant. Showing emotions is taboo, because "boys don't cry". I haven't cried in years, and it would do me so much good. If someone asks about my feelings, I can't tell them. I clam up or dismiss the question with a vague little lie.

    These unwritten rules of manliness (or femininity, I'm sure) are difficult for us autistics to navigate, and compound the social difficulties we already have.

  • I'm always being told I'm unfeminine - as though femininity is some universal ambition I'm failing to achieve. They tell me this in the same sort of tone they use to tell me my house or my clothes aren't fashionable - or that I'd achieve more in life if I were more responsive to other people. They're saying two things: (1) you shouldn't be AS and (2) men are superior to women so who do you think you are (it seems both NT men and women think this way)? Either way, screw 'em.

  • Better to be full of it minus a two lettered prefix I guess.

    really sick of labels and societal predetermined expectations... I’m a me who happens to also be a woman, employee, member of society, partner and ND individual... let them jump their own hoops and tie themselves in knots..

    i don’t really appreciate being told that I’m not that feminine or that I’m a “good little cook”... I am me and a multi facitated being.. (both of those are comments by women btw)

    people can sometimes only see what is of use or of value to them, I guess

  • Feminists rarely take a man's opinion seriously. My two female care workers reckon I'm full of it.