Benefit claim turning into a nightmare

Claiming ESA at the same time that I claimed PIP made my experience even more bizarre. I had the medicals for both only days apart - either side of the same weekend. However, the ESA and PIP departments of DWP don't use the same sub-contractor for doing their benefit assessments, so they were in two completely different places.

The PIP one I told about already above. The ESA one couldn't have been more different. The woman I saw was respectful, asked only about things relevant to my autism, and even read back what she was writing so that I could confirm that I agreed. I was awarded "support group" rate of ESA almost immediately without any fuss.

I mentioned before that my first tribunal hearing had to be adjourned.  The DWP had messed up my PIP records somehow, so the judge ordered that DWP go away and dig out my ESA claim records, as they were submitted at roughly the same time and with roughly the same evidence, so would make a close substitute.

Although I have the same contempt of the system as you, I actually wouldn't worry too much about PIP interfering with ESA. Not only do the two departments have utterly different systems and procedures, it appears that they won't even speak to each other unless a tribunal judge orders them to!  My own experience many years ago of working for the DSS (as it was then) is that the right hand not knowing what the left is doing is pretty much the normal state of affairs (to be fair, partly to ensure security and privacy.) I have also seen many, many complaints about PIP, but the problem of it interfering with existing benefits isn't something I can remember hearing about or seeing reported; though the other way around is quite common, that the stopping of PIP results in losing other entitlements for which it may qualify people (e.g. the Motability scheme).

This makes me not want to claim pip, I’m currently on ESA and thought that my recent  ASD diagnosis would help me towards getting a bit more money with pip, but I’m scared of upsetting the Apple cart now. If they mess people around like this with pip then what’s saying they wouldn’t cancel my ESA too.

i feel angry at them for you, I can never find the words to describe how I feel, but I wish someone would expose them for what they are!

Have you looked at “Benefits and Work” website.  My granddaughter went from 0 points to Enhanced for both at appeal after I joined the B and W website.  Their help and information is invaluable to everybody who uses it.

I'm sad to hear you've had such a miserable time trying to navigate the benefits system but please don't think that it is your fault, or let it take over your life completely (although I appreciate this can be difficult). When I was on Job seekers allowance, and eventually ESA, the whole process made my mental health even worse than it already was.

Have you got people supporting you through the process? I really recommend Citizens Advice website and going to a branch in person to ask about your case. I've recently also found support from a local mental health advocacy charity; they are going to send someone with me to my upcoming PIP assessment. Maybe there is something similar where you live?

It's a horrible, horrible system and it makes sick people worse

So true.

I think you should start a group on here record several of these interviews where they lie then make a class action lawsuit against them, lots of organizations are like this they just try and save money by never paying out when they are supposed to, I had a similar experience (trivial in comparison) regarding the royal mail they lost an item the tracking said they lost it and they never paid the insurance I paid for, the only way to put bastards like that in their place is to sue them.
And from other comments from “Perdu” it sounds like you already have one recording.
It really is quite sick though to try and screw over people with disabilities, and would be very satisfying to take them to court prove they were lying, you could ruin their lives which is exactly what they deserve.

You really don't need to go that far, California.  Make sure you take someone with you, if you can.  Put on an act if you need to.  If they're at all thinking that you aren't managing yourself very well, then it's in your favour.  But you don't need to start drinking.

I, guess, I will need to start drink alcohol and drink heavily.

Then I will get PIP.

And, finally, be able to be alone and happy.

I am not really that far from starting to drink.

She was not working because of alcohol addiction problems.  She got through, anyway.  I don't think she was actually drunk - more squiffy.  She was able to answer questions.

A friend fell foul of the 'arriving alone and looking clean and smart' judgment.  At her second WCA, she turned up in dirty clothes, reeking of alcohol and acting drunk.  She passed!

Are they allowed to assess drunk people?

A friend fell foul of the 'arriving alone and looking clean and smart' judgment.  At her second WCA, she turned up in dirty clothes, reeking of alcohol and acting drunk.  She passed!

My PIP assessments had a particular irony about them. When I first attended for an assessment, I hadn't yet found an advocate to come with me, and I was in an awful state.  After only a few minutes, the assessor abandoned the assessment, advising me that I should have someone with me for the re-booked appointment.  I overheard the conversation that he had with DWP over the phone to justify the re-booking, and distinctly heard him say that my "cognitive impairments" were a specific obstacle to conducting the assessment.

Yet, after being assessed for a second time (by a former paramedic), part of the reason for my rejection was that there were "no signs of cognitive impairments"!

Of course, the opinion of the first assessor was totally disregarded in my original award decision, and again when I pointed it out as part of my Mandatory Reconsideration; the judge at my first appeal hearing found it most interesting, though!

Trogluddite said:

Recent cases in the High Court, investigative journalism, and accounts by whistle-blowers have repeatedly shown that ATOS assessors are often not fit to perform assessments, especially for claimants with mental and developmental conditions, and even that some assessment centres have used staff incentives to ensure a high proportion of negative assessments.

Yes.  It's all about 'meeting performance indicators' - and getting people off of state benefits.  One of my ATOS assessments was conducted by a trainee CPN.  That put me at ease.  Big mistake.  I scored '0'.  The assessments themselves are unfairly formulated, and deliberately designed to catch people out.  There have also been cases where people have covertly recorded assessors giving training to other assessors.  One I'll always remember is where the trainer says something like 'If they've got no hands, but are able to press a button with the tip of their nose - they can operate a till.'

Same with the employment agencies like Avanta.  I came off of ESA in the end and lived on a small pension lump sum for a while until I got a job.  Just after I started work, Avanta got in touch with me to find out if I was working.  I gave them the details.  Not long after that, the DWP rang me up to ask how I'd come by the job, because Avanta was trying to claim the credit for helping me to find it.  It's an outrageous system that has no place in a 'civilised' country.

Up to the point that you have reached so far, my experience of claiming PIP was exactly the same as yours - my own evidence ignored, fabricated assessment observations, dismissal of my diagnosis, and zero points at every stage. A couple of months ago, nearly two years after originally making my claim, I had the second of two independent tribunal hearings and was awarded "enhanced rate daily living" and "basic rate mobility" (over 20 points in total), and have now been paid arrears back to my original application date.  I also have a friend who was in the same "zero points" position as me, who's autism displays broadly similar traits to mine, who also won a similar PIP award recently.

From what you have written, I would say; no, you are not "doing anything wrong."  It is DWP who are "doing things wrong" by biasing their reading of your evidence to their preferred outcome and dismissing anything which doesn't confirm this bias. Recent cases in the High Court, investigative journalism, and accounts by whistle-blowers have repeatedly shown that ATOS assessors are often not fit to perform assessments, especially for claimants with mental and developmental conditions, and even that some assessment centres have used staff incentives to ensure a high proportion of negative assessments.

So, demoralising as your current situation surely is (and I suspect is intended to be), don't dismiss the possibility of winning at a tribunal service appeal. The difference is that, in every part of the process that you've experienced so far, all decisions have been made by people representing, either directly or indirectly, the interests of the DWP. The tribunal service is independent of DWP and employs its own medical experts and judges, who will re-assess the evidence completely from first principles - in fact, the reason that I had to have two tribunal hearings was so that the tribunal service could collect additional evidence due to their misgivings about the "evidence" provided by DWP at the first hearing. You can also submit further evidence of your own during this process. The tribunal hearings were nerve-wracking, for sure, but it was immediately apparent to me that their lines of questioning were much more pertinent to my condition, and they were very understanding of how difficult the hearings were for me (e.g. allowing me to take a break when I needed one.)

Of course, this may mean spending a long time with a very important decision hanging in the balance, which could be very stressful; I had to remind myself constantly that, besides a few hours here and there collating evidence and attending the tribunals, I was materially in the same position as I would have been had I not appealed. It is likely to be a big help if you can find an advocate who can help you through this process and attend the hearings with you, so I would advise you to seek out a suitable local disability advocacy service (your local CAB should be able to help with this.)

Ditto. The person clearly didn’t know what she was talking about. I too am diagnosed in my 50’s, I have been to both ESA and Pip assessments with mixed results and I have my latest one coming up which I am dreading. I find them humiliating, demeaning, inhumane and yes they try to make you say things or misinterpret what you do say. I also take a long time to recover afterwards. I now make sure someone goes with me into the interview. So far not got anyone but phoning cab tomorrow. Also want to record the interview but it’s difficult to get the equipment so that you can give them the required copy. Nightmare. I went to Tribunal once, had an awful time, got nowhere then loved on savings until persuaded to try again. Have no idea how it will go this time. I have been anxious since I got the letter to review and at each stage the anxiety becomes worse. Will be glad when i get that part over but it doesn’t stop there ; you then have to wait for the follow up. If you harm or take your own life they still win because we’re just a hidden statistic. It does pull me down, sorry. But as Tom says Benefits and Work are really good and I’ve also found Cab to be. Welfare Rights can be too if you get the right person. So you are not alone, you are not doing anything wrong, but you do have to give very detailed answers and what evidence you can. But it seems you take trouble to send all the information required then instead of them using that do you have to gather it all up and take duplicates? It’s crazy. 

You are, definitely, not the only one!

I am in a very similar situation.

I have had a very similar experience.

I got the same about treatments and about me being physically capable.

The assessment did feel like she was trying to put words in my mouth the entire time and manipulate what I was saying to make it seem like I was fine too.

You have to go to the Tribunal. And you have more than one chance to appeal.

I am upset by the whole process as well.

Hickory said:

"with all due respect you're a little old for an autism diagnosis"

This makes me so angry.  Complete nonsense.  I was 56 when I got my diagnosis.  Many others have not been diagnosed until their 40s, 50s and even 60s.  In many respects, I think it's because we're pushed down the mental health route first - which is what it sounds like is happening to you.

As regards benefits... I was on ESA for about 2 years once.  I failed my first WCA, in spite of having back-up both from my GP and a counsellor.  They over-rode my GP's recommendations about my health.  I appealed - and failed that.  So I took it to the tribunal stage... and had the appeal decision overturned.  The tribunal was actually not as frightening as I imagined, and the judge and doctor I saw (in private) were very sympathetic.  Then, a year later, the whole process started again.  At my second WCA, the assessor told me she was a trainee CPN, so was a specialist in mental health issues.  That put me at false ease.  Once again, I scored '0'.  I'd had enough by then.  I cashed in a pension and lived on the lump sum for a few months until I got a job.  It's a horrible, horrible system and it makes sick people worse.

Check out these people.  I found them to be very helpful.

Benefits and Work

Tom

I did outline in my appeal that the assessments should be filmed. I wish that I had filmed it now because the amount of lies they told about what went on is disgusting. 

I covertly filmed mine, during which i had a meltdown (very minor, i swore, after being asked why i hadnt successfully killed myself), they terminated it and said they would reschedule then didnt and instead refused me pip, my advocate made a complaint which was rejected, i then informed the DWP that i had filmed the whole thing in broadcast quality 1080p60 422 colour space and was considering going to the guardian, lo and behold i was awarded pip.