An interesting article I wrote on the reality of the current system.

I have compiled an article(most compassionate one to date) about the ideal vision for our revised system. Click here http://www.assupportgrouponline.org/system

Please check it out.

Emma

  • Interesting and whilst I agree that we do need to look at the way the NHS and social care operate, or how the disability benefit system functions I also think we need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. For instance, we’ve been told for almost the last three decades that the NHS was on the brink of collapse unless it got a lot more funding, but it hasn’t collapsed, the problem is that it functions as a system designed to meet the needs of the past, not the present or the future, but being such as sacred cow everyone is scared of complete reform and restructuring of the NHS.

    Agreements and disagreements aside on the actual policies one of the major problems is funding. Less than 30% of working age adults are net contributors to the state, with all but a handful of children (usually child actors) and only 2% of pensioners being net contributors you’re in a situation where roughly 20% of people in the UK are funding everyone else. If we want European style services then we have to pay for them, and they key is that we ALL have to pay for them.

    To give an example someone working for minimum wage on a 40 hour week in the UK would pay £1,710 in income related taxes per year, someone on the same wage in Germany would pay £4,328 in income related taxes per year. Germany VAT 19% vs 20% in the UK for most goods, however they charge a 7% rate on food vs 0% in the UK and there are far fewer exemptions than in the UK. There’s also a municipal tax which is roughly similar to council tax. In Scandinavia, the taxation is even higher on almost everything but especially income taxes.

    The difference is that in Germany or other European countries it’s seen as everybody’s job to contribute, however in the UK over the last decade an attitude of “the rich” should pay for everything. Until the majority of the population accept that they will have to pay more in tax, that it can’t just be paid for by someone else then the current situation will continue. 

  • MattBucks said:
    Interesting and whilst I agree that we do need to look at the way the NHS and social care operate, or how the disability benefit system functions I also think we need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. For instance, we’ve been told for almost the last three decades that the NHS was on the brink of collapse unless it got a lot more funding, but it hasn’t collapsed, the problem is that it functions as a system designed to meet the needs of the past, not the present or the future, but being such as sacred cow everyone is scared of complete reform and restructuring of the NHS.

    That is indeed true. The NHS is run according to an outdated ideology from the mid 20th century rather than a modern institution providing the services required for today and tomorrow. It is far from a progressiveinstitution and many of its employees are institutionalised so are resistant to change. There are also plenty of undeserving people in senior positions who strive to maintain the status quo to protect their jobs.

    Even worse is that the NHS is Britain's unofficial national religion.

    The difference is that in Germany or other European countries it’s seen as everybody’s job to contribute, however in the UK over the last decade an attitude of “the rich” should pay for everything. Until the majority of the population accept that they will have to pay more in tax, that it can’t just be paid for by someone else then the current situation will continue.

    I disagree with this one. My mother's background is politics and economics. What you have basically subscribed to is the railings for scrap mentality from WW2.

  • Arran said:

    I disagree with this one. My mother's background is politics and economics. What you have basically subscribed to is the railings for scrap mentality from WW2.

    I don't really see how the concept that everyone should contribute, rather expecting "someone else" to pay for the things they want has anything do to with a badly managed program to maintain a supply of iron for the war.

    The current tax system is reliant on an ever decreasing group of people paying for everyone else, the reason we "can't afford" a German or Scandanavian level of state expenditure is because people aren't willing pay their levels of taxation. Either services stay as they are everyone pays in more. The idea that "the rich" can be made to pay for everything is not only daft, it is vindictive and has become part of the politics of envy that defines the British left.

  • MattBucks said:
    I don't really see how the concept that everyone should contribute, rather expecting "someone else" to pay for the things they want has anything do to with a badly managed program to maintain a supply of iron for the war.

    Railings for scrap was a propaganda piece intended to increase public morale. The railings were dumped in the Medway estuary but the government knew that if people were prepared to make personal sacrifices for the common good then Britain would stand a greater chance of winning the war.

    Your argument that everyone needs to contibute is effectively the same concept of personal sacrifices for the common good.

    The current tax system is reliant on an ever decreasing group of people paying for everyone else, the reason we "can't afford" a German or Scandanavian level of state expenditure is because people aren't willing pay their levels of taxation. Either services stay as they are everyone pays in more. The idea that "the rich" can be made to pay for everything is not only daft, it is vindictive and has become part of the politics of envy that defines the British left.

    I'm not really sure that you understand economics very well.

    It really is futile, if not downright offensive, to tell common folk to pay more taxes whilst multinational companies use tax havens to cheat the exchequer out of billions. Make companies like Sky TV, Google, Amazon, and Facebook pay their share of taxes first before telling the average Joe to.

  • It wasn’t all dumped in various estuaries, it was just that they collected too much and couldn’t process it and didn’t want to tell people it was all a pointless exercise. It was badly planned and implemented though, especially as we continued to need to import iron.

     

    I'm not really sure that you understand economics very well.

    I would throw exactly the same as you.

    It really is futile, if not downright offensive, to tell common folk to pay more taxes whilst multinational companies use tax havens to cheat the exchequer out of billions.

    It’s not futile or offensive, people should pay the tax due, if they feel that they want more public spending then they should also feel that they correspondingly should pay more. If anything is offensive it’s the idea that they should be able to live of the labour of others just because they “want more”. It’s totally different to having a safety net, but if people want higher government spending then they have to accept higher taxation (or massive QE, rampant inflation and devaluation of Sterling but that’s a separate matter).

    Make companies like Sky TV, Google, Amazon, and Facebook pay their share of taxes first before telling the average Joe to.

    That old chestnut, “their share”, or often with the addition of “fair”. They pay what they are required to by the law, just as everyone else does and personally I’d like to see corporation taxes lowered further but with a dividend tax when the dividend is issued to a non-UK taxpayer/entity and a profit transfer tax.

    People seem to forget the incentive, I run a company, after paying all normal costs there’s business rates (tax), there’s ers NI (tax), there’s then Corporation Tax at 20% on the remaining profits. I’ll already have paid income tax and ees NI on my PAYE salary and on any profit that I take out as dividend I then have to pay Income tax on that at 40%. On top of that there’s council tax, duty, VAT etc. I’m already giving away a significant chunk of my income and getting very little back, whilst at the same time being told I don’t contribute enough, that I should give up even more of my income so that other people don’t have to contribute at all. I have no problem with the state helping people with disabilities, who are ill, pensioners, children etc. but where I take issue is people insisting that they shouldn’t pay any more tax because they want to be able to go on holiday more often or want to be able to drink more. If everyone was willing to pay more the I would be as well, but I’m not willing to pay more because others think that everything should be paid for by “someone else”.