Gaslighting

'Gaslighting is a form of manipulation that seeks to sow seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or in members of a targeted group, hoping to make them question their own memory, perception, and sanity. Using persistent denial, misdirection, contradiction, and lying, it attempts to destabilise the target and delegitimise the target's belief.'

As Aspies, I'm sure we're particularly prone to this.  I know I am. My experience, too - with a sister-in-law who's a consummate narcissist - has caused me much grief and upset over the last 30 years.  These were years when I not only didn't know that I was autistic, but I also didn't really know what her motivations were.  I've found out so much more about it all since my diagnosis, and through having someone else who knows her tell me that she isn't just like it with me.  For most of those years, I simply thought there was something wrong with me - and she was the one who, more than most, was at pains to keep reminding me.  The damage this woman has done - not just to me, but to other members of my close family - is profound.  Much of it is irreparable.  But at least now I no longer have any reason to have any contact with her - notwithstanding the fact that she's married to my brother.  I'm well rid of her.  She's controlled and manipulated our family for far too long.  My brother is her puppet.  And so competent a puppeteer is she that he doesn't even realise he has strings!  He's well and truly Stockholmed!

For years, I've been told I'm gullible, susceptible, credulous, naive, etc.  I've had my leg pulled time after time, and been the butt-end of jokes.  I've been taken for a ride, scammed, made to look ridiculous.  But I take people at face value.  If they tell me something, I tend to believe them.  Why wouldn't I?  Why would they lie to me?  But people have, and do.  It's why I detest gossip and won't have any part of it, because all it really is is manipulation and destabilisation, perpetuated by a group.  Victimising the vulnerable.  And it gives people a sense of 'belonging' to be onside in the gossip.  If you're not happy with the way someone's behaving or performing - tell them!  But no.  Gossip is easier... and it's more fun.  Huh!

Anyone else got any 'gaslight' tales to share?

Parents
  • I see there is an article in the Guardian today about the equal pay row at the BBC where gaslighting is mentioned.

    As has been pointed out to me previously when I joined this forum I suffered emotional deprivation as a child. I think this has made me a very needy person and so I sought a cure for this deprivation from other women as it was not available from my mother. I think this could have relevance to my naivity and gullability in later life. Constantly seeking love and affection missing from my childhood. 

    That would also explain why some people think I have behaved in a mysogenistic way towards women. My neediness making me too demanding in relationships with women. I may be wrong but it does seem to explain a lot. Is this gaslighting on my part?

    Take care, Laddie

  • I'm not sure, Laddie.  I mean, would you say your behaviour was deliberately manipulative and deceitful?

    I've been accused of being abusive in a relationship - emotional and verbal abuse - but (without wishing to let myself off the hook over it - it isn't something I'm proud of) largely it's been in reaction to the behaviour of the other.  My last partner  definitely had narcissistic tendencies.  She controlled most situations to her own advantage.  And, at the end, she refused to accept that my outrages were in any way connected to her behaviour.  Definitely a narcissistic trait.

  • No I would not say my behaviour was deliberately manipulative but I am also not sure if it wasn't deceitful at times. I was easily led astray and cheated once or twice when I should not have. I guess that's back to being too needy in relationships and hoping the grass is greener on the other side of the fence and not resisting the temptation to find out. But I have always confused sex with love anyway.

    I have never been physically abusive with women but may have been derogatory with some of my comments.

    I definitely have narcissistic traits. I seldom put others before myself  but I never realised it at the time.

    My ex wife did lose her temper with me once and physically attacked me. I think she was frustrated by my lack of empathy and that boiled over into violence. I think she knew from very early on I was autistic (she was a trained special needs teacher) and felt her efforts to "cure" me were not being appreciated.

    So no I am fairly sure nothing in my behaviour has been deliberate. 

    Take care , Laddie

  • Oh no, I definitely wasn’t saying that we’re narcissists, far from it. Yes, there can appear to be a crossover in behaviour, but that is looking at purely the behaviour side of things, not at our motives etc. No, we’re nothing like them. The only thing that made me think they could be autistic, with a personality disorder of narcissism, was because my friend, who thinks she’s autistic, was very similar to my ex in many ways but I would never have considered her narcissistic. It made me realise that there were times when I had misunderstood him, however, there is still no explanation for his brutal and manipulative behaviour, and yes, he got pleasure out of seeing me destroyed. For a narcissist, if you were to kill your self because of them, they would see it as a victory and be so proud of themselves. Your SIL most likely does miss you, you were part of her supply chain, but they soon find somebody else to feed off. 

    I can see some autistic traits in them, and maybe that’s it, maybe they just have some traits. I don’t know. I’ve been pondering this now and again for a couple of years. They definitely have the god delusion so maybe it is just more of a personality disorder, which autism most definitely isn’t. 

  • I think I get what Deepthought is driving at, and I was a little troubled myself by the idea that narcissists are autistic.  It seems, from what you said, that the syllogism is: Narcissists are autistic; I am autistic; therefore, I am a narcissist.  I agree that we can behave in ways that can be perceived as narcissistic.  But the motivations are entirely different, surely?  I don't feel, in any sense, the need to manipulate situations in my favour in order to validate or enhance my sense of self.  Rather, I behave in ways that are primarily focused on minimising or eliminating (I wish!) anxiety.  I avoid relationships and friendships for that reason - and because I don't want to impose my 'conditions' on others, to their detriment.  With narcissists - such as my SIL - there's more a sense that she craves such relationships as a way of enhancing her own position... and because she seems to thrive on the schadenfreude of seeing the results of her manipulations in fights and arguments between those around her.  Except, of course, her favoured ones: confederates, such as her own daughter.

    I feel so much stronger for not having her in my life.  And I wonder if she feels the same - or if she actually misses the battle.  I suppose, though, she's achieved what she wanted from the start.  My brother, all to herself - her puppet, who can both support her and bow to her every wish.

    Forgive me if I've misinterpreted your meaning here.

    PS  That last, by the way, is something that she would never demean herself by saying!  Rather, her tactic is to use that against others constantly.  'You've misunderstood me.'  'You've misinterpreted my meaning.'  It never occurs to her - and, of course, it never will - that nobody misunderstands her.  We understand her only too well!

  • I’m not sure if I understand your question Deepthought, but this is my reasoning. 

    When I was with the narcissist, I learned that I was his ‘supply’, i.e. I was feeding him with my love and adoration. If we stop ‘feeding’ them, i.e. we build up our self esteem and therefore we are no longer prepared to feed them, their survival tactics of manipulation/narcissism would no longer work, there would be no one to work it on, no supply left. The environment would also be more loving and supportive because the co-dependents would now be interdependent and more able to support the narcissists to address what it is that caused them into this pattern of behaviour and eventually, this aspect of personality would die out. That’s the only way I can see of addressing narcissism because you can’t work with them directly, although I do know of one case where this was successful. 

    They are desperately sad and lonely individuals who are hurting more than we could ever imagine. But we also live in a narcissist world which supports their behaviour. 


  • We (non narcissistic autistics) can set them free, by not feeding them. Eventually they’ll die out. 

    Eugenic ideology!?!

    Addressing the primary need, and thereby resolving the immature adaptation, enables a greater and freer harmonic resonance on the societal wavelength, rather than increasing harmonic discordance by involving psychic pollution and promoting more mental and physical deterioration. 

    Which part or parts of you perhaps are seeking or were seeking to be fed whilst you suggest in the long term not feeding others like yourself?


    I think a narcissist is autistic.


  • Ah... I think this is the difference.  A narcissist would realise it.  They know precisely what they're doing.

    A Narcissist is like any Personae Disorder, as being a socially shared and habitually enforced behaviour pattern that is not compatible to the primary need, on account of not or not so much being appropriately nurtured, but inappropriately natured instead.

    So for example, rather than for instance being given comfort or T.L.C. (tender loving care), a child is treated in a domineering (or controlling) way, as in the sense of being perhaps told to stop being upset and behave (act) differently "Or else!"

    The "Or else!" connotation as a threat involves indirect or direct evidence of malnutrition, violence, exposure and ultimately death. Consider as evidence people dying of hypothermia on the streets or in parks on account of enforced homelessness.

    So, the indirect or direct threat of essentially pain and suffering, or death, obstructs the primary need to live, and a compensation is made (behaving differently) in order to meet the primary need and survive effectively.

    When the compensation does not over time result in the primary need being met; the compensation becomes a habituated behavioural adaptation, which is compulsively driven by the primary need, and is not or cannot as such be met ~ so the primary need increases, and increases, and increases.

    Eventually, providing this addictive behaviour is not addressed, the psychological and physiological apparatus involved with both the primary need, and the behavioural adaptation ~ stop operating, just as people pass out if they hold their breath long enough.

    Some people for instance, have been the most vindictive and nihilistic bullies at school ~ that they burnt out the psychological and physiological apparatus involved with such behaviour, and became as such the nicest people you might ever hope to meet ~ yet some have little or no recollection of ever being a bully at all.

    When people say for example that they do not know what came over them, this can involve anything from a short moment to a life long moment, and just as many people burn out the abusive patterns of behaviour, others burn out the ability not to be abusive, as can burn out their entire psychological and physiological system.

    Basically then, when children are introduced to abusive behaviour ~ at home and school etc, this involves firstly being traumatised, and then secondly off-loading and dumping the excessive traumatic tension on others ~ which further traumatises them into yet deeper states of psychological and physiological subconsciousness. 

    Think then about the statement, "Forgive them for they know not what they do." ~ i.e. not knowing what they think they do, and not knowing then what they are doing.


  •  No, doesn’t sound like it. The reason I said it, was because when I was in Australia in 2016, I stayed with a woman for 3 months and she was almost identical to my ex, although I wouldn’t have called her narcissistic. It was interesting and I realised I had been severely misunderstanding my ex at times. She says she’s autistic, but I also see split personalities in her as well, so I don’t know. But people only lie, cheat, and hurt people etc when they don’t feel safe, they’re not in their right minds. If they were, they wouldn’t hurt anybody. 

  • Interesting point - but my sister-in-law is most certainly not autistic.  Not in any other sense at all.  She's like a mini-equivalent of Donald Trump: manipulative, devious, a liar as it suits.  She loves setting one person off against another, then standing back to watch the fun.  I don't attribute any of this behaviour to autism.  I'd be interested to hear what others think, though.

  • I think a narcissist is autistic. But with narcissistic personality disorder or that that’s their persuasion, like mine is avoidance. They can no more help themselves as we can, without an understanding of who they are. The difference is, the nature of narcissism means that the ‘cure’ to their difficulties simply feeds the narcissism. So it is possible for them to recognise themselves and take responsibility but in a narcissistic society, in which we live, in which gaslighting is the norm, there’s less chance of them getting out of their self limiting prisons. We (non narcissistic autistics) can set them free, by not feeding them. Eventually they’ll die out. 

  • But I have always confused sex with love anyway.

    Me, too.

    I seldom put others before myself  but I never realised it at the time.

    Ah... I think this is the difference.  A narcissist would realise it.  They know precisely what they're doing.

Reply Children
  • Oh no, I definitely wasn’t saying that we’re narcissists, far from it. Yes, there can appear to be a crossover in behaviour, but that is looking at purely the behaviour side of things, not at our motives etc. No, we’re nothing like them. The only thing that made me think they could be autistic, with a personality disorder of narcissism, was because my friend, who thinks she’s autistic, was very similar to my ex in many ways but I would never have considered her narcissistic. It made me realise that there were times when I had misunderstood him, however, there is still no explanation for his brutal and manipulative behaviour, and yes, he got pleasure out of seeing me destroyed. For a narcissist, if you were to kill your self because of them, they would see it as a victory and be so proud of themselves. Your SIL most likely does miss you, you were part of her supply chain, but they soon find somebody else to feed off. 

    I can see some autistic traits in them, and maybe that’s it, maybe they just have some traits. I don’t know. I’ve been pondering this now and again for a couple of years. They definitely have the god delusion so maybe it is just more of a personality disorder, which autism most definitely isn’t. 

  • I think I get what Deepthought is driving at, and I was a little troubled myself by the idea that narcissists are autistic.  It seems, from what you said, that the syllogism is: Narcissists are autistic; I am autistic; therefore, I am a narcissist.  I agree that we can behave in ways that can be perceived as narcissistic.  But the motivations are entirely different, surely?  I don't feel, in any sense, the need to manipulate situations in my favour in order to validate or enhance my sense of self.  Rather, I behave in ways that are primarily focused on minimising or eliminating (I wish!) anxiety.  I avoid relationships and friendships for that reason - and because I don't want to impose my 'conditions' on others, to their detriment.  With narcissists - such as my SIL - there's more a sense that she craves such relationships as a way of enhancing her own position... and because she seems to thrive on the schadenfreude of seeing the results of her manipulations in fights and arguments between those around her.  Except, of course, her favoured ones: confederates, such as her own daughter.

    I feel so much stronger for not having her in my life.  And I wonder if she feels the same - or if she actually misses the battle.  I suppose, though, she's achieved what she wanted from the start.  My brother, all to herself - her puppet, who can both support her and bow to her every wish.

    Forgive me if I've misinterpreted your meaning here.

    PS  That last, by the way, is something that she would never demean herself by saying!  Rather, her tactic is to use that against others constantly.  'You've misunderstood me.'  'You've misinterpreted my meaning.'  It never occurs to her - and, of course, it never will - that nobody misunderstands her.  We understand her only too well!

  • I’m not sure if I understand your question Deepthought, but this is my reasoning. 

    When I was with the narcissist, I learned that I was his ‘supply’, i.e. I was feeding him with my love and adoration. If we stop ‘feeding’ them, i.e. we build up our self esteem and therefore we are no longer prepared to feed them, their survival tactics of manipulation/narcissism would no longer work, there would be no one to work it on, no supply left. The environment would also be more loving and supportive because the co-dependents would now be interdependent and more able to support the narcissists to address what it is that caused them into this pattern of behaviour and eventually, this aspect of personality would die out. That’s the only way I can see of addressing narcissism because you can’t work with them directly, although I do know of one case where this was successful. 

    They are desperately sad and lonely individuals who are hurting more than we could ever imagine. But we also live in a narcissist world which supports their behaviour. 


  • We (non narcissistic autistics) can set them free, by not feeding them. Eventually they’ll die out. 

    Eugenic ideology!?!

    Addressing the primary need, and thereby resolving the immature adaptation, enables a greater and freer harmonic resonance on the societal wavelength, rather than increasing harmonic discordance by involving psychic pollution and promoting more mental and physical deterioration. 

    Which part or parts of you perhaps are seeking or were seeking to be fed whilst you suggest in the long term not feeding others like yourself?


    I think a narcissist is autistic.


  • Ah... I think this is the difference.  A narcissist would realise it.  They know precisely what they're doing.

    A Narcissist is like any Personae Disorder, as being a socially shared and habitually enforced behaviour pattern that is not compatible to the primary need, on account of not or not so much being appropriately nurtured, but inappropriately natured instead.

    So for example, rather than for instance being given comfort or T.L.C. (tender loving care), a child is treated in a domineering (or controlling) way, as in the sense of being perhaps told to stop being upset and behave (act) differently "Or else!"

    The "Or else!" connotation as a threat involves indirect or direct evidence of malnutrition, violence, exposure and ultimately death. Consider as evidence people dying of hypothermia on the streets or in parks on account of enforced homelessness.

    So, the indirect or direct threat of essentially pain and suffering, or death, obstructs the primary need to live, and a compensation is made (behaving differently) in order to meet the primary need and survive effectively.

    When the compensation does not over time result in the primary need being met; the compensation becomes a habituated behavioural adaptation, which is compulsively driven by the primary need, and is not or cannot as such be met ~ so the primary need increases, and increases, and increases.

    Eventually, providing this addictive behaviour is not addressed, the psychological and physiological apparatus involved with both the primary need, and the behavioural adaptation ~ stop operating, just as people pass out if they hold their breath long enough.

    Some people for instance, have been the most vindictive and nihilistic bullies at school ~ that they burnt out the psychological and physiological apparatus involved with such behaviour, and became as such the nicest people you might ever hope to meet ~ yet some have little or no recollection of ever being a bully at all.

    When people say for example that they do not know what came over them, this can involve anything from a short moment to a life long moment, and just as many people burn out the abusive patterns of behaviour, others burn out the ability not to be abusive, as can burn out their entire psychological and physiological system.

    Basically then, when children are introduced to abusive behaviour ~ at home and school etc, this involves firstly being traumatised, and then secondly off-loading and dumping the excessive traumatic tension on others ~ which further traumatises them into yet deeper states of psychological and physiological subconsciousness. 

    Think then about the statement, "Forgive them for they know not what they do." ~ i.e. not knowing what they think they do, and not knowing then what they are doing.


  •  No, doesn’t sound like it. The reason I said it, was because when I was in Australia in 2016, I stayed with a woman for 3 months and she was almost identical to my ex, although I wouldn’t have called her narcissistic. It was interesting and I realised I had been severely misunderstanding my ex at times. She says she’s autistic, but I also see split personalities in her as well, so I don’t know. But people only lie, cheat, and hurt people etc when they don’t feel safe, they’re not in their right minds. If they were, they wouldn’t hurt anybody. 

  • Interesting point - but my sister-in-law is most certainly not autistic.  Not in any other sense at all.  She's like a mini-equivalent of Donald Trump: manipulative, devious, a liar as it suits.  She loves setting one person off against another, then standing back to watch the fun.  I don't attribute any of this behaviour to autism.  I'd be interested to hear what others think, though.

  • I think a narcissist is autistic. But with narcissistic personality disorder or that that’s their persuasion, like mine is avoidance. They can no more help themselves as we can, without an understanding of who they are. The difference is, the nature of narcissism means that the ‘cure’ to their difficulties simply feeds the narcissism. So it is possible for them to recognise themselves and take responsibility but in a narcissistic society, in which we live, in which gaslighting is the norm, there’s less chance of them getting out of their self limiting prisons. We (non narcissistic autistics) can set them free, by not feeding them. Eventually they’ll die out.