Please help I am desperate

Hi I haven't been on for a while as life was jogging along nicely, but something has come up that I am totally out of my depth, and comfort zone with, and I am hoping some one here will be able to help.

My son is almost 13 now and has Aspergers.  He is a wonderful articulate loving boy, who has been through a really rough time, that we are coming out the other side of.  He takes prozac to manage his anxiety.

He is going through puberty and has announced that he is gay, that is fine and not the problem, (I don't care if he loves a blue koala as long as he is happy), I mention it because it might be related to his problem.

He has for a while had wetting and soiling issues which have had me stumped, because he used to be really reliable.  Tonight after a lot of reassurance he sent me this message over skype as it was easier than talking to me face to face (I get that it is embarrassing for him at his age>)

the reason why I am urinating is cus I am a idiot and I stick my hand up my but witch cause me to wee. and I want to stop cus its not helping and idk what to do I am sorry

 but I cant stop and I don't know hy

 why*

I understand that it is a pleasuring thing and also probably sensory aswell but I have no idea how to talk to him, to help him stop.  It is having a huge impact on his life. he is needing lots of changes of clothes, his hands and nails and around the nails are always filthy because of where they are going, and his is having repeated bouts of diarrhoea.

Sorry to ask for help but I am totally utterly stumped, and I want to help him, especially with school coming up

  • I have a block on my internet that doesn't allow porn

    Paradoxically perhaps, I wonder if that was counterproductive. It's well known (among experts at least) that such manipulation of internet data results in both under- and over-blocking and may prevent access to sensible sexual advice covering development and masturbation, as well as appropriate teen forums. Without the block it may be easier to find 'mainstream' gay or straight porn in whatever media, which should be far more visible than anything 'weird' or coercive (yes, such videos or stories idealised and unrealistic, but that point can be stressed in sex education). The tabloid media have been entirely misleading on this and influencing politicians. Failing that, sex education books would have seemed the traditional enlightened way to do it.

    I think communicating in text was a great idea... OK, I see this thread is 4 years old (stumbled on it checking something else), so hope he's happy and healthy by now.

  • Anil A - Mod said:

    From your post there doesn't seem to be any suggestions of an outside influence or peer pressure to do with this particular issue.  


    Why is it that others saw what was going on here but the NAS rep completely missed it?

  • crazydarkside said:

    There was an incident about a year ago where he was brought into a dare club, and because he was vulnerable, he was coerced into performing a sex act on another boy. The school knew and told none of the parents involved.  I only found out because my friends daughter told what was going on... This was after 8 months of bullying for my son.  Which led to panic attacks, depression and 2 suicide attemps.  I believe he had been telling people in year 6 that he liked boys, and it went from there

    !!!! Schools still covering up the abuse of autistic children in their care? Unacceptable! Please identify the school so other parents can avoid it.

    PS Im flagging this thread for attention.

  • As a safety measure, can a lubricant and/or a specialist stimulation tool be provided by way of harm reduction? I'm concerned about the possibility of anal injury...

  • There is a paragraph relevant to this in Tony Attwood's the complete guide to asperger syndrome, p357....it covers much of the ground we've covered above, in a context of older adolescents/adults but useful from a respected authority:

    "The focus or expression of sexual pleasure can also be of concern. For example, the person with Asperger's syndrome may not have had the usual social, sensual and sexual experiences of typical adolescents, and may develop sexually arousing fantasies involving objects, clothing, children or animals. The technical term is paraphilia. Acting out some paraphilia is illegal. The person with Asperger's syndrome may have been sexually abused and subsequently repeat the offence with others, assuming such sexual behaviour is acceptable, or as an attempt to understand why someone would engage in, and appear to enjoy, such behaviour"

    "A curiosity and confusion regarding sexuality can lead to the desire for more information and the development of solitary and clandestine special interest in pornography".

    As I say that's for an older teenager, but the issue is that after a disturbing experience such as the one at school, he may be trying to sort it out in his head, over focussing on the issues of whether it means he is gay, and whether he should be acting out the role. With aspergers you worry, process possibilities over and over again in negative cycles, and may get a buzz out of this review.

  • Hi Crazydarkside,

      Thank you for filling us in on the missing elements about the issues that occurred at his School. It does help.

    As a mum you are doing fine. You have established a dialogue, albeit written and I can see that you have been very clear about the issues that concern you and how you would like him to consider the affects on yourself and his self-esteem with his peers. Being direct will leave him in no doubt that he needs to consider these issues, but take care not to attach any guilt to what he is doing.

    It is always a step forward when an adolesant begins to take control of an independance element of their life, be careful however, that the new laundry basket doesn't become a focal point of shame, but more about him taking responsibility for his personal hygiene and independance in general.

    I've found, through very recent experience, that assuming understanding of certain things, can lead to grave misunderstandings on the most basic level for someone with ASD. Be sure your son understands the terms you are using, so as not to misconstrue. Also assuming he will copy behaviour based on your example is not always as obvious as it seems, so do remain calm. If he needs occassional prompting, keep it as low key and as nag free as you can, to avoid distress.

    Do follow the moderators advice and have a chat with them also. They have behavioural specialists who will be able to give you expert advice.

    Perhaps, if you look in to the second book i suggested and feel it's appropriate it may also demistify some of the terms us Adults use, which he may have trouble understanding due to his naivety. found a link below.

    www.amazon.co.uk/.../ref=sr_1_4

    I'm sure the NAS specialist will also be able to advise. The copy I have, is very tame by todays standards, but worth looking over first to ensure it's approprate for his level. It also comes from the standpoint of a loving relationship perspective, which may help put things into context.

    I hope NAS have some good suggestions on literature for those on the spectrum, as i've been hard pushed to find much.

    I do wish you luck. Keep us posted.

    Coogybear

  • Thank you,

    I have a block on my internet that doesn't allow porn, and My son doesn't go out because we live in a small village

    There was an incident about a year ago where he was brought into a dare club, and because he was vulnerable, he was coerced into performing a sex act on another boy. The school knew and told none of the parents involved.  I only found out because my friends daughter told what was going on... This was after 8 months of bullying for my son.  Which led to panic attacks, depression and 2 suicide attemps.  I believe he had been telling people in year 6 that he liked boys, and it went from there

    I asked my son today if he was comfortable talking to me and he said no, but I could write to him so I sent him this note

    I know that there are a lot of things that you find it difficult to talk to me about in person, so I have tried to write this down the best way that I can.

      Firstly I love you very much, nothing will ever change that, you have nothing to feel ashamed about, so please read all of this.


    As you know exploring your body is natural, whether it is for sexual reasons or not, it is all part of growing up, and totally normal.


    I am unsure how you came across the idea that putting your fingers/hand up your anus and I want to make sure that you are not doing it because you feel you should get pleasure this way because you are gay and there is no alternative, and I wanted to make sure that you aren't being encouraged or pressured in to it by other people.


    The way that you are chosing to explore/pleasure at the moment is having an impact on your life, and also on mine.  You need to understand that it is a choice, and if it is the only thing that provides you with satisfaction, then there are a couple of things that we are going to have to put in place.  You MUST MUST MUST really wash your hands thoroughly afterwards.  You know I have been aware for a while about the brown around and under your nails.  If you don't wash and go round touching anything afterwards there is a really strong chance that you are going to get sick, and that you are going to get me sick....again.  Also it smells Matt, and you really have enough problems at school, without people commenting on the state/smell of your hands.  It is also causing you to soil and urinate yourself.  It really isn't fair to expect me to clean this up Matt.  So I have ordered a laundry basket, for you to put these clothes into and you are going to have to take responsibility for doing this.  The reason your tummy has been so bad recently is partly anxiety and partly because of the stimulation, you also stimulate your bladder too through the wall which is why you urinate.  Again both of these things will smell, so you need to be having a shower afterwards. You need to try and think this through beforehand.  It is going to be embarrassing for you to have me pestering you to wash/ shower and pick up your room, so you need to judge if you are going to be able to do it with out being pestered.


    I know that you say you want to stop but you can't.   So, why do you want to stop?  I can't be with you 24/7 Matt each time you do this it is a choice to do it, and I appreciate that any habit is hard to stop, but you broke the lucozade habit.  It is about setting something up to distract yourself, at those moments.


    Have you tried other forms of masturbation (no I don't want to know, it is a question for you to think about) they are less messy!  If you have things you need to ask I am here so are uncle Paul and David.


    He sees a psychiatrist occasionally at the moment, and his new school (High school) school are making sure the other boy can't get to my son.  They have a really good support unit for children on the spectrum.

    We have had lots of hugs today and I have reassured him that it doesn't matter what he does I will alway love him, to which he replied that he is a really lucky boy with a cool mum!

    I just am not sure how to get through to him about the hygiene part, I think he has taken it in, but it is difficult to tell.

    I want him to be happy, but to set boundries about privacy etc etc. am I doing ok??

    I will look through the books you have suggested, 

  • I would suggest, that along with considering some of the advice given here, that there may be a medical issue/component that should be considered.

    Here's our page on toilet training, but I would advise you to speak to your GP to ensure there's no medical issues going on. www.autism.org.uk/.../Toilet-training.aspx

    From your post there doesn't seem to be any suggestions of an outside influence or peer pressure to do with this particular issue.  

    Appointments with our behavioural specialist can be made by calling 0808 800 4104. 

  • Something else that might be useful to a parent is something on adolescent sexuality, trouble is I haven't got the book to hand - it was given to me as a present about thirty years ago, read and loaned to someone else from whom I never got it back, so my memory is hazy. It is called "Sucking Sherbert Lemons" by Michael Carson, its the first of a trology about growing up gay. Although fiction (considered at the time to be spot on) and describing an older teenager, it might help a parent understand what goes on in the teenage mind about being different. It was popular at the time in the way the dog in the night-time has become a cult representation of autism.

  • Really good stuff Coogybear and recombinantsocks. If I could add some small points.

    Masturbatory fantasies at an early age should be driven by peer group interests. With isolation from his peer group he may seek other forms of fantasy, and these could become established, and stay with him for life.

    Low self esteem could be a factor, especially if bullying or ribbing at school is involved.

    Prostatic stimulation as coogbearpoints out could be achieving the same effect as masturbation. If he is self-conscious or worried about masturbation he may be using this as a substitute. Probably worth allaying his fears about masturbation. There is still mythology floating about in the public domain about morality and going blind.

    I could refer you to Daniel Tammet's book "Born on a Blue Day", which is primarily about his memory and linguistic feats; he now seems to be denying he was ever autistic. His chapter on adolescence and later chapters explore this. Page 119:

    ""From the age of eleven I knew that I was attracted to other boys, although it would be several years before I considered myself 'gay'. The other boys in my class were interested in girls and talked a lot about them, but it did not make me feel any more of an outsider - I was already very aware that my world was very different to theirs"

    He then goes on to talk about a first crush at 16.

    Providing a context that is someone with an AS background recognising feelings at 11. This business of being an outsider, at school and in other peer groups creates a situation where not being required to conform it is easier to break the rules.

  • Hello Crazydarkside,

    Please let me say beforehand, that I am no expert and that my advice is not a professional or educated opinion, but I intend to speak openly and candidly and my views maybe considered liberal, so I hope i do not offend anyone.

      I can see that this is very difficult for you and naturally an experimental and sensitive time for your son. I share Longmans concern for your sons safety, especially, surrounding what youngsters today percieve and what actually goes on in society. This is often very difficult for those on the spectrum to judge. 

    It's important that your son stays safe, but also that he views things from a balanced perspective and not what is readily availible via porn on the net which; lets face it, is seldom what happens in any interaction, gay or straight.

    As I understand it; contrary to popular belief and portrayal on the net, gay sex is often Intercrural sex, not always penatrative. (Although most gay porn would have you believe otherwise.) This practice has been documented throughout history particularly in ancient Greece. If your son is not aware of that, it may help him to know and may also serve to reduce any pressure he perceives about only having to perform anal sex in the future, if he does believe he's gay. Their are other options.

    Having said that, the truth is, he is also still very young. This is not to detract from his feelings, which i'm sure are very real and strong for him, but as far as emotional maturity goes, he's unlikely to be in a position to know what to do to express his feelings and I would suggest that interaction with others at his age could as Longman hints, be a basis for him being at risk of being taken advantage of and in some instances even ridiculed. Frankly, that would go for any heterosexual youngsters also. I'm not sure i was mature enough at that age, or the age of 16 even. He does need to be guided on how to stay safe and to be able to identify boundries that must not be crossed by others, towards him.

    It's really very brave of him to open up to you at such a young age and clearly he's concerned, but with his own methods he has managed to talk with you about it and I would encourage him to continue to do that. I'm glad you don't have an issue with his sexuality and feel able to talk about it with him, as it would be another hurdle to overcome otherwise.

    Firstly, I think your son needs reassurance.                                                       By his statement, it indicates a level of shame, although it is not clear whether that stems from his continence issues, his admisssion about his practices or both.

    Most of us masturbate, and he needs to know that his actions and feelings are normal for him and many others like him, whether they admit it or not. He's also at an experimental age and discovering your own sexuality and place in society is a tricky time for NT's, let alone those on the spectrum. Encourage him to keep an open mind, but also to be confident in his choices. He is who he is, and their should be no shame in that. The fact that he feels accepted by his parents for his feelings that he is gay is a huge bonus.

    You don't have to answer this directly, but it may be worth asking your son.

    Firstly, at the risk of sounding crass, is he actually using his whole hand or just his fingers? The reason I ask, is that using the expression 'hand,' implies his hand, and again this may have been picked up from a misleading porn site, as being the 'norm'.

    'Fisting', as I understand it, can cause weakness of the anal sphincter, potential tearing and leakage if practiced without care or sufficient and appropriate lubrication. Whilst, it maybe pleasurable for some 'in the moment,' the long term affects can cause problems. If this is the case, then I would suggest he be encouraged to move away from this type of stimulation, but to consider an alternative instead.

    If; as I suspect, he's talking about using his fingers, then this is not such a problem if practiced with care, but still needs to be talked about in terms of hygiene and technique. (I will elaborate below.) 

    In the establishment of 'Moral developement', Freud theroized that in the context of personality developement that we move through 5 phases or psycohsexual stages in our lives. Oral (Up to one year.), Anal (1-3 years), Phalic, (3-5 or 6 years.), and Genital (Puberty to maturity.) If you subscribe to his theory; and assuming all of us whether gay or not go through these phases, then your sons practices are a normal part of his sexual developement, albeit somewhat delayed. Perhaps he hasn't moved on from this stage yet.

    Asking someone to give something up, that they find pleasurable is a difficult undertaking. Can I ask, does he really want to give up what he's doing or is it that he perceives that he should?

    The truth remains, that stimulation of the prostate gland; (the 'G' Spot.) for some men, can be extremely pleasurable and I can appreciate that this would be a very hard habit for him to break. Many practice this form of stimulation, but do so from an informed standpoint. (Adults may do so using gloves or by using a small sex toy covered with a condom etc. for hygiene purposes) but, it's not always the sole focus or only option in their maturbation.

    By technique, i mean listening to our bodies needs. Most often, we need to urinate after sex or any form of stimulation. This is the bodies natural process. For young or inexperienced individuals, or for those that have difficulty with sensory issues, they won't always use the toilet or may fall asleep after masturbation and this can cause them to wet themselves. They may even feel as though they need to go, but not act on it. Talk to him about this and see if by going to the toilet more frequently, his incontenence is reduced.

    Likewise, if an inappropriate lube or even no lubrication is used in a sensitive area, it can cause inflamation and swelling. Failure to evacuate your bowels, cross contamination and poor hygiene, will also add to the risk of infection and increased bouts of diarrhoea. Learning about what to use or using products that are safe for sensitive and intimate areas, is not always a first consideration to a teenager, but it may be worth discussing this with your son and may reduce not only the diarrhoea, but also any soiling.

    I think what's appropriate here is some informed discussion. I'm not suggesting that you run out and stock up on lubes and condoms for someone of this age. Far from it, but some guidance in personal hygiene and healthy sexual practices and also support to understand that masturbating is normal and can take many forms, would be a good 1st move forward.

    If there is risk to him or your family's wellbeing, as a result of his practices and moving on with his practice for other means of masturbation seem unlikely at this point, then perhaps you may need to reconsider. If limiting his chances of infection and illness is more appropiate you may need to revise whether to discuss more safe and hygiene focused options used by adults, (As discussed above.) than letting it continue without support and raising his anxiety further.

    Remember, we are talking about a 13 year old who is experimenting with masturbatory stimulation here, not sex. Clearly, you are very supportive parents and that will be invaluable in helping him on his journey through puberty.

    I'd love to suggest some appropriate ASD reading here, but it is very thin on the ground. Additionally, you will need to gauge what is appropriate reading for him. It maybe better to give him access to more factual mature literature, than for him to peruse the net for example.

    'The joy of Sex' is very dated, but maybe useful. 'The loving touch' by consultant Dr. Andrew Stanway, is also dated however, it is a very balanced and mature text that does embrace both heterosexual and homosexual practices, looks at Body language, masturbation, hygiene, healthy practices, safe sex and includes diagrams. He may find this less anxiety provoking than speaking to you directly and also it may encourage him to ask you more questions about specifics that he has trouble understanding.

    For adults, most of us gauge that any sexual practice is ok, so long as it is consensual and does not cause harm to yourself or another. Sex should not be viewed with shame or as dirty and that each persons preferences will develop on our sexual journey and will be unique to us. Your son will find his way, but needs support and direction on his journey.

    I hope this helps

    Kind Regards

    Coogybear


  • I agree with most of longman's post. I would particularly agree with the part about confusion and ambiguity. As I understand it this is a normal or at least common phase that boys go through between childhood and adulthood. Not sure how easy it is to find some respectable material on the internet that you could show him?. If you can reassure him that his experimentation is normal and that it doesn't mean the he is, or isn't, gay then that might help him.

  • This is a tricky situation for you. I do wish NAS would take this seriously, but everyone seems to duck the issue - British coyness or something - its young people's lives, especially those with a disability that should be paramount.

    There seems to be evidence, not a great deal of case study material, that sexual confusion and ambiguity is fairly common. Let's face it, if you aren't socially connecting properly you will miss out on a lot of peer interchange that seems essential in forming sexual ideas in teenage years (however unreal it may be - its safer coming from collective knowledge, despite all the peer pressure to do things early).

    There seems to be a higher propensity to be gay amongst people on the autistic spectrum - and oh dear, what happens on this forum but everyone clams up if the subject is mentioned. So young people with this dilemma have to live it in ignorance because of twee parenting? I'm talking about general reactions, I note that crazydarkside is being mature and open-minded about it - that's exceptional.

    At school, young people who don't appear to be catching up with their peers on sexual awareness may be labelled "***" or "gay". There is widespread use of such phrases and a lot of studies being done (sadly more from a gay rights perspective than young people's welfare).

    A young person who gets these labels and reacts to them as someone with aspergers might, by being led into the feeling they ought to be, will be further encouraged by their peers down this route, to add to the collective entertainment. They may be told myths to see their reactions.

    Also you need to establish that no interference is happening - I don't mean gay behaviour, I mean ribbing that involves bullies of his age group removing his pants and humiliating him. It happens. Also they may be pushing him towards certain magazines to see if he rises to this.

    He might well be gay. At 13 as I understand it, that self-identification is possible. Bit trickier though if someone has aspergers. But many young men that age start exploring the places they are told by their peers that gay men meet, such as certain waste ground areas, public conveniences etc. He really is at risk in that environment, and you need to be sure he is not doing that.

    More likely he is being persuaded by peers that he needs to be able to "receive" be penetrated anally, so he will feel he has to prepare for this. Hence he is experimenting rather luridly, and may be doing himself harm. He may have a very strong need to be prepared for it, boostered by his own emerging hormones. There is a popular connection made between homosexuality and "buggery" which is not necessarily so - somehow this has got into his head that he needs to develop this capability. He needs to be reassured it isn't necessary.

    Asperger worryning, negative reinforcement, and dwelling on things too long is an inevitable breeding ground for inappropriate sexual ideas. A lot of the time he is convincing himself to explore the most uncomfortable and dangerous of ideas while flogging himself over all the moral issues of it being a sin, wicked, shunned by society. If you have any idea of how the asperger mind processes weird information in comparative isolation (no peer information), you will appreciate the torment he is in.

    There are a lot of websites for the weirdest of sexual imaginations including much gay material. Can he access any of this, is he doing so? Most people would be horrified by what's readily available through search engines like google. Everyone worries about child abusers, the children are quite capable of abusing themselves on the web.

    And please NAS wake up to this very serious issue. NAS is too cowardly about things that do need to be better understood.